TheWraithAwaitsU
New member
I personally think a character is only as dangerous as the hands they are being controlled by. What's your opinion forum
Does anyone buy into this Tier BS?
- Thread starter TheWraithAwaitsU
- Start date
Immortal Reaver
Well-known member
Tier lists (at least legit ones) are not opinion whatsoever, they are based purely on fact with extensive testing with frame data and all sorts of other things. Anyone who doesn't believe in tier lists just doesn't know a whole lot about fighting games.
But tier lists don't always determine the winner, especially with average players. Tier lists only really matter for competitive play.
But tier lists don't always determine the winner, especially with average players. Tier lists only really matter for competitive play.
Sektorpionax-Zero
New member
this ^ 100% agree. What most people fail to understand about tier lists is that they are not opinionated. When you become a highly skilled player and facing another equally highly skilled player then the tierlist would come into play because you could go off of statistical information on who has a better chance of winning given the right tools.
FlawlessVictor
New member
Outcome = Character x Player
There is no denying that a player's skill is important. However, some characters have natural strengths that will give them more favorable matches over other characters (assuming both players have roughly equal skill). A fighting game developer worth its salt strive to make the character selection factor as small as possible... Unfortunately it is extremely difficult to eliminate it altogether due to the overwhelming number of variables it takes to balance a game. If it were not an issue, NRS would not have bothered to release any patches.
There is no denying that a player's skill is important. However, some characters have natural strengths that will give them more favorable matches over other characters (assuming both players have roughly equal skill). A fighting game developer worth its salt strive to make the character selection factor as small as possible... Unfortunately it is extremely difficult to eliminate it altogether due to the overwhelming number of variables it takes to balance a game. If it were not an issue, NRS would not have bothered to release any patches.
Last edited:
ooDEVILJINoo
New member
think you i think the same way 
Eks
Well-known member
Anyone who thinks they're BS should just ignore them. They're not for the faint of heart.
Food for thought:
Tom Brady is one of the most knowledgeable people about this game because he was a tester for MK. He is also a fighting game veteran whose primary role with the game was to balance it and find bugs to be removed. A very popular topic with him is tier lists (which he gladly responds to), so if someone so knowledgeable gives them validity, why shouldn't anyone else?
Food for thought:
Tom Brady is one of the most knowledgeable people about this game because he was a tester for MK. He is also a fighting game veteran whose primary role with the game was to balance it and find bugs to be removed. A very popular topic with him is tier lists (which he gladly responds to), so if someone so knowledgeable gives them validity, why shouldn't anyone else?
Last edited:
Dedamn666
New member
i dont let them concern me it takes the fun out of the game. I think alot of folk like to imagine there pro s at the game and rant and rave about them pretending they understand them, when really they dont. Granted Tom Brady may have tested MK and be pretty good but come on dont hang on every word the man said, i saw him loose almost flawlessley to a cyrax player only to blame his controller working. Looked like it was working fine to me he managed to pull of a few ice clones as subzero
ThatRandomGuy42
New member
Apparently, Cryax is a sh*t tier character, yet I can do pretty well with him. Tiers mean nothing to me. They mean nothing to me in Super Smash Bros Brawl as well.
"Tiers are for Q***rs" - Some guy online.
"Tiers are for Q***rs" - Some guy online.
Asodimazze
New member
Last edited:
NothingRhymesWithCircus
New member
***************************************************************************
These comments reminded me what website this is...
Vulcan Hades
New member
Tier lists (real ones with matchup chart) tells you what matchups you need to practice and what characters could make a good sub/counter to complement your main's weakness.
So yeah, they're mostly useful for tourney players. But any player can take advantage of a tier list.
You guys just need to stop crying when you see your main low or mid tier. And stop assuming that godtiers are the only viable characters in the game.
To quote Tom: "Post-patch all characters will be A tier or higher. That means there will be no bad characters in the game. 99.999% of matchups in MK9 are either 5-5s or 6-4s". Simply put: most matches between same skilled players can go either way.
So yeah, they're mostly useful for tourney players. But any player can take advantage of a tier list.
You guys just need to stop crying when you see your main low or mid tier. And stop assuming that godtiers are the only viable characters in the game.
To quote Tom: "Post-patch all characters will be A tier or higher. That means there will be no bad characters in the game. 99.999% of matchups in MK9 are either 5-5s or 6-4s". Simply put: most matches between same skilled players can go either way.
Last edited:
TheWraithAwaitsU
New member
Thanks for the opinions and explanations. Dedamn666 and Immortal Reaver sweet avatars.
Eks
Well-known member
Only a moron would read my post and think I was saying to follow TB like he was a god. He has an intricate connection to the game and he has a lot of professional experience with fighting games, so his ideas on the game and tier lists shouldn't be ignored. All high-level players pay attention to tier lists, and I don't think they would spend time on something that was useless, either.
I'm not claiming to be a pro (far from it), but I do understand the logic and function of tier lists. Considering that you think TB is invincible hints at you not really understanding them, tho.
Last edited:
Immortal Reaver
Well-known member
it's irrefutable evidence strongly proving Tom's comment saying that this forum is mostly for casuals.
yautjared
New member
Tier list for me means :
- Some characters can make some players to be in the "comfortable zone", using certain combinations of combos + special moves in order to control your opponent actions, distance and more or less foresee how the match result will go on. So, with these "hight tier" characters, maybe a skilled player can count more with the good natural features this character have and, play more agressive and putting more pressure in the match, being pro-active. Character like Kung Lao that can go forward along the match, because he has his spin attack that both protect him for anti-air and serves as combo start, serves as a strong wake up attack and, he can link his strongest combos after it, because all he needs is to connect just one spin move sucessful to start all action, so, he can have the luxury to come on you, more or less, attacking to open a chance to use his spin. If he attacks using the spin, he can start his devastation combo, if he defends using his spin, he can do the same combos, so, Kung feel comfortable being the attacker, and when he has to defend, he is not in so disadvantage.
- While the suppose "low tiers", you should, by nature, play more safe, avoiding maniac rushdown when you don't need, and , calculating more when attack after you see an explicity error coming from the opponent, as a missing teleport, missing flying kick, missing sweep, missing full combo. Example, Sheeva playing against Kung Lao, she can be sucessful if she waits Kung Lao to miss a spin attack or dive kick, next, she can start her combo, or she can try to use some teleport after Kung Lao miss his own teleport chance. But if a Sheeva player try to go agressive offensive against Kung, face-to-face, Kung perhaps has more chance to win the rushdown disput due his speed and spinning move.
But, tiers list can change all the time, even more when people start to play certain characters differently, or , just discover better strategies with low tiers that work well against high tier. Maybe tiers reflect more the overall special move game mixed with the combos, but, the combos itself , without the special moves, have no such absurd difference, because in this field only, pratically all characters have some default(s) combo(s) that equal the forces between them, so, maybe the complex combination of combos + special moves makes the diference.
- Some characters can make some players to be in the "comfortable zone", using certain combinations of combos + special moves in order to control your opponent actions, distance and more or less foresee how the match result will go on. So, with these "hight tier" characters, maybe a skilled player can count more with the good natural features this character have and, play more agressive and putting more pressure in the match, being pro-active. Character like Kung Lao that can go forward along the match, because he has his spin attack that both protect him for anti-air and serves as combo start, serves as a strong wake up attack and, he can link his strongest combos after it, because all he needs is to connect just one spin move sucessful to start all action, so, he can have the luxury to come on you, more or less, attacking to open a chance to use his spin. If he attacks using the spin, he can start his devastation combo, if he defends using his spin, he can do the same combos, so, Kung feel comfortable being the attacker, and when he has to defend, he is not in so disadvantage.
- While the suppose "low tiers", you should, by nature, play more safe, avoiding maniac rushdown when you don't need, and , calculating more when attack after you see an explicity error coming from the opponent, as a missing teleport, missing flying kick, missing sweep, missing full combo. Example, Sheeva playing against Kung Lao, she can be sucessful if she waits Kung Lao to miss a spin attack or dive kick, next, she can start her combo, or she can try to use some teleport after Kung Lao miss his own teleport chance. But if a Sheeva player try to go agressive offensive against Kung, face-to-face, Kung perhaps has more chance to win the rushdown disput due his speed and spinning move.
But, tiers list can change all the time, even more when people start to play certain characters differently, or , just discover better strategies with low tiers that work well against high tier. Maybe tiers reflect more the overall special move game mixed with the combos, but, the combos itself , without the special moves, have no such absurd difference, because in this field only, pratically all characters have some default(s) combo(s) that equal the forces between them, so, maybe the complex combination of combos + special moves makes the diference.
Critical-Limit
New member
I'm about to go into major detail about this...
There are 2 ways people do tier lists.
1.) Is based upon matchups and frame data and theory. matchup advantages, and those who are more likely to make it to the end as a victor are placed higher. this is the more legit way to go about it, but it's WAY harder to finally meet an accurate version of this, because patches/ people figuring newer things out people weren't trying ect ect.
2.) The other way is based of tournament results. Although this way tends to be less accurate they develop quicker. But it can make a deceptive play in making you think a character is worse than it really is. I played SSBM competitively and they use this system. And Jigglypuff was mid-tier forever. 2 players became uber pro with her and thus they moved her up to S tier. These jigglypuff pros say that NO she is not better than what the tier list say they believe people just haven't learned how to fight her new meta-game yet. And as of recently... she hasn't been winning tournaments. So... this method is great for "current meta-game" But it's not great for the final product. As it tends to be based more on top player skill levels.
AS of right now I wouldn't trust anything the tier list says, this game is not out long enough to validate 100% something OP or UP. If you really want to win "current" tournaments i suggest following example number 2. Because they tend to show "current metagame" results. If you see 5 kunglaos in the top 8. In the current METAGAME kunglao is your best choice. But when it comes to the actual game... kunglao might not even be top 10 best characters to pick. Because people haven't advanced the metagame of the unpopular characters yet.
Tier list is mostly tournament related. as in the TOP character in a tier list is ment to let you know he gives you the best options and tools to place 1st place.
There are 2 ways people do tier lists.
1.) Is based upon matchups and frame data and theory. matchup advantages, and those who are more likely to make it to the end as a victor are placed higher. this is the more legit way to go about it, but it's WAY harder to finally meet an accurate version of this, because patches/ people figuring newer things out people weren't trying ect ect.
2.) The other way is based of tournament results. Although this way tends to be less accurate they develop quicker. But it can make a deceptive play in making you think a character is worse than it really is. I played SSBM competitively and they use this system. And Jigglypuff was mid-tier forever. 2 players became uber pro with her and thus they moved her up to S tier. These jigglypuff pros say that NO she is not better than what the tier list say they believe people just haven't learned how to fight her new meta-game yet. And as of recently... she hasn't been winning tournaments. So... this method is great for "current meta-game" But it's not great for the final product. As it tends to be based more on top player skill levels.
AS of right now I wouldn't trust anything the tier list says, this game is not out long enough to validate 100% something OP or UP. If you really want to win "current" tournaments i suggest following example number 2. Because they tend to show "current metagame" results. If you see 5 kunglaos in the top 8. In the current METAGAME kunglao is your best choice. But when it comes to the actual game... kunglao might not even be top 10 best characters to pick. Because people haven't advanced the metagame of the unpopular characters yet.
Tier list is mostly tournament related. as in the TOP character in a tier list is ment to let you know he gives you the best options and tools to place 1st place.
aedanwolfe
New member
True tier lists are impossible atm. So any posted are more of a mixture of peoples experiences,.opinions and tourney results. The true ones do serve a purpose but only for the top 1% of gamers that go to tourneys competitively. The difference between top and bottom tier isn't always much difference really
Dedamn666
New member
i dont understand and i do not think tom brady is invincible sorry if you felt i aimed something at your comment
Only a moron would read my post and think I was saying to follow TB like he was a god. He has an intricate connection to the game and he has a lot of professional experience with fighting games, so his ideas on the game and tier lists shouldn't be ignored. All high-level players pay attention to tier lists, and I don't think they would spend time on something that was useless, either.
I'm not claiming to be a pro (far from it), but I do understand the logic and function of tier lists. Considering that you think TB is invincible hints at you not really understanding them, tho.