Your wishlist for MK10

Subz allow me to make an attempt at human subzero that you're doing to cybersubzero.

If you note before I start this. I've always been positive in both HUMAN and CYBORG. I just advocate that we don't NEED(keyword) to make him human to have a nice storyline.


Now this is me putting on the reverse cap of what you're doing to Cybersub


If he's human he can be easily killed, as swords and knives can more easily pierce skin rather than steel.

He would also be much more susceptible to Sickness!!! I mean if he was extreme heat or cold weather for too long he could get sick and die!!!

what good can his character do for growing, if he gets sick and doesn't fight?


or what if a plague happens he's open to disease!!! he must be cyborg so he can avoid this.


Also, as a human he could get mind controlled or enslaved by quan chi

as a cyborg he could opt to have a system override his mind so he can fight quan chi w/o worrying about being controlled.

I mean when he "WAS" hacked he had no control when he was a slave to lin kuei right? what if he on purpose programs himself to ignore his own mind so he can fight people who mind control. Quan chi controlling his mind doesn't matter if his cybernetics ignore brain orders.

So him being a cyborg allows him a better chance to escape human enslavement in netherrealm!!!



All I did was pick out any bad thing I could think about with humans, and put him in the worse possible scenario. That's all I see everytime you talk about cybersubzero.


Have you seen Wall-E? I didn't see much "hurt" in the growth of those "robots".

Considering Cyborgs have more GROWTH opportunities than robots, because they have a real conscience.
 
Critical-Limit said:
Subz allow me to make an attempt at human subzero that you're doing to cybersubzero.

If you note before I start this. I've always been positive in both HUMAN and CYBORG. I just advocate that we don't NEED(keyword) to make him human to have a nice storyline.


Now this is me putting on the reverse cap of what you're doing to Cybersub


If he's human he can be easily killed, as swords and knives can more easily pierce skin rather than steel.

He would also be much more susceptible to Sickness!!! I mean if he was extreme heat or cold weather for too long he could get sick and die!!!

what good can his character do for growing, if he gets sick and doesn't fight?


or what if a plague happens he's open to disease!!! he must be cyborg so he can avoid this.


Also, as a human he could get mind controlled or enslaved by quan chi

as a cyborg he could opt to have a system override his mind so he can fight quan chi w/o worrying about being controlled.

I mean when he "WAS" hacked he had no control when he was a slave to lin kuei right? what if he on purpose programs himself to ignore his own mind so he can fight people who mind control. Quan chi controlling his mind doesn't matter if his cybernetics ignore brain orders.

So him being a cyborg allows him a better chance to escape human enslavement in netherrealm!!!



All I did was pick out any bad thing I could think about with humans, and put him in the worse possible scenario. That's all I see everytime you talk about cybersubzero.


Have you seen Wall-E? I didn't see much "hurt" in the growth of those "robots".

Considering Cyborgs have more GROWTH opportunities than robots, because they have a real conscience.
Click to expand...

Okay but let's look at each of those little scenarios you have come up with.

Say he is fighting guys with guns and knives, he's basically just armour. A WEAPON which is one of the exact things I'm scared of him being treated as. Sub-Zero is much more than just a weapon.

Also, in extreme heat or cold. Your electrical devices will not act normally. Trust me. I've worked around freezers and when it becomes hot they try to overcompensate and freeze up. Same in the winter, they just overheat.

On him becoming sick. Yeah. he wouldn't become sick in a plague. He wouldn't die. Only everyone around him would. Hell, maybe he would be left as the only being on earth. That would make him the best I guess. Because that's totally natural and totally HUMAN like.

Oh and becoming enslaved and controlled by Quan Chi as a human. Because he's totally not in that same situation as a cyborg presently. Why doesn't he just use that mind override thing you're talking about now? That could be really helpful to Raiden ya know.

Also, let's say he does ignore his mind completely to go to the Netherrealm as a cyborg. That wouldn't get him killed by tons of demons instantly I'm sure.

I think what you fail to catch with my arguments is that I like humanity. Why do you think when people bring up things like mind control, or robots taking over that people instantly are just like no. It's because we as humans enjoy our free will. We can be looked as normally, and we aren't used for agendas like fighting or being used as weapons. Humanity is a great thing, and being in a metal exoskeleton doesn't fully allow that freedom to Sub-Zero.

He's not as easily relatable, and just quite honestly I'm not a huge fan of the cyborgs. They have grown on me, but I still don't think that they fail in comparison to many of the other characters. When Sektor and Cyrax were introduced I thought Okay I'm going to cool down because they are just new characters, and with Smoke I thought he hasn't even been playable yet so turning him should be no problem.

However, with Sub-Zero we have seen his struggles, we have grown with his pain, and seeing all of his growth. Taking the humanity from someone like that is just taking away all of the possiblities they had as a human, IMO. that's also something you have ignored. I say that these are my OPINIONS. You are entitled to you opinion. I'm entitled to mine. Sub-Zero as a human has MORE room for growth and an entertaining story than does Cyber Sub-Zero to me. Period. You can try to say I'm wrong, but that's MY opinion. It's not really yours to judge.

I also didn't like when you said I'm not a fan of Kuai Liang, but a fan of a Ninja. Hell to the nah on that one. I've been arguing that Sub-Zero should just unmask completely forever, and honestly I could deal with him in street clothes. I hate the cyber form though. It was shock value, and I still think NRS intentionally made him cookie cutter good guy in his cyber chapter to make people like him better. People caught on to that though. He could have easily had an encounter with his brother in his human chapter and could have said "You're right we're not brothers." That was one of the best lines from Sub-Zero and just as easily could have been in his human chapter, but they placed certain things in his cyber chapter for a reason. I mean the whole fight with Ermac or Reptile could have been erased for an encounter with his brother in his HUMAN chapter. I just think it was funny how that just so happened to end up in his cyber chapter along with him saving the soldiers. Why couldn't that have been what he was doing when Cyrax encounterd him in the human chapter?

Regardless over everything, I like HUMAN characters. I can't relate to a cyborg. Plain, Simple. I felt Smoke had a good character in the old timeline, despite being a cyborg. In the end though his Smoke ended up freeing him anyway, he wasn't a complete cyborg. Boon even said his Smoke form would have been what he looked like as a human.

Also, why does this site sign me out so quick? If I type for like 10 minutes this thing kicks me out and I have to log back in. I hate it.
 
To break up some of the tension of the thread, I hope that those unused KOTH concepts like MK Trivia make in into MK10 this time

And Subz, all you have to do is click on the "Remember Me?" checkbox when you log in, that way you'll stay logged in
 
Critical-Limit said:
Subz allow me to make an attempt at human subzero that you're doing to cybersubzero.

If you note before I start this. I've always been positive in both HUMAN and CYBORG. I just advocate that we don't NEED(keyword) to make him human to have a nice storyline.


Now this is me putting on the reverse cap of what you're doing to Cybersub


If he's human he can be easily killed, as swords and knives can more easily pierce skin rather than steel.

He would also be much more susceptible to Sickness!!! I mean if he was extreme heat or cold weather for too long he could get sick and die!!!

what good can his character do for growing, if he gets sick and doesn't fight?


or what if a plague happens he's open to disease!!! he must be cyborg so he can avoid this.


Also, as a human he could get mind controlled or enslaved by quan chi

as a cyborg he could opt to have a system override his mind so he can fight quan chi w/o worrying about being controlled.

I mean when he "WAS" hacked he had no control when he was a slave to lin kuei right? what if he on purpose programs himself to ignore his own mind so he can fight people who mind control. Quan chi controlling his mind doesn't matter if his cybernetics ignore brain orders.

So him being a cyborg allows him a better chance to escape human enslavement in netherrealm!!!



All I did was pick out any bad thing I could think about with humans, and put him in the worse possible scenario. That's all I see everytime you talk about cybersubzero.


Have you seen Wall-E? I didn't see much "hurt" in the growth of those "robots".

Considering Cyborgs have more GROWTH opportunities than robots, because they have a real conscience.
Click to expand...

Okay but let's look at each of those little scenarios you have come up with.

Say he is fighting guys with guns and knives, he's basically just armour. A WEAPON which is one of the exact things I'm scared of him being treated as. Sub-Zero is much more than just a weapon.

Also, in extreme heat or cold. Your electrical devices will not act normally. Trust me. I've worked around freezers and when it becomes hot they try to overcompensate and freeze up. Same in the winter, they just overheat.

On him becoming sick. Yeah. he wouldn't become sick in a plague. He wouldn't die. Only everyone around him would. Hell, maybe he would be left as the only being on earth. That would make him the best I guess. Because that's totally natural and totally HUMAN like.

Oh and becoming enslaved and controlled by Quan Chi as a human. Because he's totally not in that same situation as a cyborg presently. Why doesn't he just use that mind override thing you're talking about now? That could be really helpful to Raiden ya know.

Also, let's say he does ignore his mind completely to go to the Netherrealm as a cyborg. That wouldn't get him killed by tons of demons instantly I'm sure.

I think what you fail to catch with my arguments is that I like humanity. Why do you think when people bring up things like mind control, or robots taking over that people instantly are just like no. It's because we as humans enjoy our free will. We can be looked as normally, and we aren't used for agendas like fighting or being used as weapons. Humanity is a great thing, and being in a metal exoskeleton doesn't fully allow that freedom to Sub-Zero.

He's not as easily relatable, and just quite honestly I'm not a huge fan of the cyborgs. They have grown on me, but I still think that they fail in comparison to many of the other characters. When Sektor and Cyrax were introduced I thought Okay I'm going to cool down because they are just new characters, and with Smoke I thought he hasn't even been playable yet so turning him should be no problem.

However, with Sub-Zero we have seen his struggles, we have grown with his pain, and seeing all of his growth. Taking the humanity from someone like that is just taking away all of the possiblities they had as a human, IMO. that's also something you have ignored. I say that these are my OPINIONS. You are entitled to you opinion. I'm entitled to mine. Sub-Zero as a human has MORE room for growth and an entertaining story than does Cyber Sub-Zero to me. Period. You can try to say I'm wrong, but that's MY opinion. It's not really yours to judge.

I also didn't like when you said I'm not a fan of Kuai Liang, but a fan of a Ninja. Hell to the nah on that one. I've been arguing that Sub-Zero should just unmask completely forever, and honestly I could deal with him in street clothes. I hate the cyber form though. It was shock value, and I still think NRS intentionally made him cookie cutter good guy in his cyber chapter to make people like him better. People caught on to that though. He could have easily had an encounter with his brother in his human chapter and could have said "You're right we're not brothers." That was one of the best lines from Sub-Zero and just as easily could have been in his human chapter, but they placed certain things in his cyber chapter for a reason. I mean the whole fight with Ermac or Reptile could have been erased for an encounter with his brother in his HUMAN chapter. I just think it was funny how that just so happened to end up in his cyber chapter along with him saving the soldiers. Why couldn't that have been what he was doing when Cyrax encounterd him in the human chapter?

Regardless over everything, I like HUMAN characters. I can't relate to a cyborg. Plain, Simple. I felt Smoke had a good character in the old timeline, despite being a cyborg. In the end though his Smoke ended up freeing him anyway, he wasn't a complete cyborg. Boon even said his Smoke form would have been what he looked like as a human.

Also, why does this site sign me out so quick? If I type for like 10 minutes this thing kicks me out and I have to log back in. I hate it.
 
Subz 711 said:
I just think it was funny how that just so happened to end up in his cyber chapter along with him saving the soldiers. Why couldn't that have been what he was doing when Cyrax encounterd him in the human chapter?

Also, why does this site sign me out so quick? If I type for like 10 minutes this thing kicks me out and I have to log back in. I hate it.
Click to expand...

Because then his chapter would be too long. You should be happy as a Sub-Zero fan that he received as much screen time as he did.


Also just hit the 'Stay Signed in' or 'Remember Me' box next to the login thing.
 
back said:
Because then his chapter would be too long. You should be happy as a Sub-Zero fan that he received as much screen time as he did.


Also just hit the 'Stay Signed in' or 'Remember Me' box next to the login thing.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but I was saying they could have removed the fight with Ermac or Reptile in exchange for an encounter with Noob. Hell that would have really changed the timeline, finding out his brother is evil early then revealing the secrets he learned from his brother to Scorpion and maybe it possibly could have lead to Scorpion killing Quan Chi even before MK4 happens. THAT would have been a change. Turning Subz cyber was just kinda like Meh saw it coming from a mile away.
 
Subz 711 said:
Yeah, but I was saying they could have removed the fight with Ermac or Reptile in exchange for an encounter with Noob. Hell that would have really changed the timeline, finding out his brother is evil early then revealing the secrets he learned from his brother to Scorpion and maybe it possibly could have lead to Scorpion killing Quan Chi even before MK4 happens. THAT would have been a change. Turning Subz cyber was just kinda like Meh saw it coming from a mile away.
Click to expand...

Ermac & Reptile fight were actually pretty significant. By finding Jax & Sonya, Kuai discovered that Scorpion was Bi Han's murderer. The Reptile fight was pretty much guaranteed. Subs had no idea where to find Scorpion, so he went to the man who constructed the tournament that killed him. Shao Kahn was not going to allow someone to demand something from him, so he forced him to fight Reptile.
 
Subz 711 said:
I still think NRS intentionally made him cookie cutter good guy in his cyber chapter to make people like him better.
Click to expand...
Don't get why you would come to that conclusion.

What they were really trying to do is portray his greater sense of morality and overall change for the better since his reprogramming.

You may call that a "cookie-cutter" good guy (which isn't really true because it's not like he went out of his way to save a little child from a burning building or something).

But I call that character development.

If anything, I would say Stryker was the one they were trying to make look better. I mean, he fought against and defeated characters like Ermac and Kintaro. Johnny Cage couldn't even defeat Ermac, but Stryker can defeat him and Kintaro? Now that's something to call bullshit on
 
Subz 711 said:
@ RicochetMatt

Wait, Didn't Cage die in MK3? That was one of the times I was referring to, maybe I'm mistaken. Also, I love the story all the way through Armageddon so I consider everything that has been done.

Anyway, you see my point well though. Metal isn't organic, and if the characters are brought back it seems like it would make more sense for them to be human. Sub-Zero included. Just because his fans want him to be human again doesn't mean it's cheap to turn him back into a human if it makes sense. Hell, that's probably why they made him die in the first place.
Click to expand...

Yes. I think he did die in MK3. But I only gave a shit about the series up until MK4. So even though he was brought back in that game, it still had little effect on me. Especially since in the coming games more and more characters would die and be brought back. It's annoying.

It all comes down to HOW the characters are brought back. When Sindel was resurrected she appeared naked in the desert. Only organic material linked to her physical body regenerated.

So if they do that with Sub Zero, I guess I could accept him being human again. But story-wise it has to feel natural and necessary. Otherwise, wtf was the point of him becoming a cyborg in MK9?

Honestly, Cyrax and Sektor could just bring him back to life using their technology. Sub Zero is a cyborg now. To what extent, we don't know. But it could come down to a bit of rewiring and such and he's back. And considering he only died from a freakin uppercut....
 
Subz 711 said:
Okay but let's look at each of those little scenarios you have come up with.

Say he is fighting guys with guns and knives, he's basically just armour. A WEAPON which is one of the exact things I'm scared of him being treated as. Sub-Zero is much more than just a weapon.

Also, in extreme heat or cold. Your electrical devices will not act normally. Trust me. I've worked around freezers and when it becomes hot they try to overcompensate and freeze up. Same in the winter, they just overheat.

On him becoming sick. Yeah. he wouldn't become sick in a plague. He wouldn't die. Only everyone around him would. Hell, maybe he would be left as the only being on earth. That would make him the best I guess. Because that's totally natural and totally HUMAN like.

Oh and becoming enslaved and controlled by Quan Chi as a human. Because he's totally not in that same situation as a cyborg presently. Why doesn't he just use that mind override thing you're talking about now? That could be really helpful to Raiden ya know.

Also, let's say he does ignore his mind completely to go to the Netherrealm as a cyborg. That wouldn't get him killed by tons of demons instantly I'm sure.

I think what you fail to catch with my arguments is that I like humanity. Why do you think when people bring up things like mind control, or robots taking over that people instantly are just like no. It's because we as humans enjoy our free will. We can be looked as normally, and we aren't used for agendas like fighting or being used as weapons. Humanity is a great thing, and being in a metal exoskeleton doesn't fully allow that freedom to Sub-Zero.

He's not as easily relatable, and just quite honestly I'm not a huge fan of the cyborgs. They have grown on me, but I still think that they fail in comparison to many of the other characters. When Sektor and Cyrax were introduced I thought Okay I'm going to cool down because they are just new characters, and with Smoke I thought he hasn't even been playable yet so turning him should be no problem.

However, with Sub-Zero we have seen his struggles, we have grown with his pain, and seeing all of his growth. Taking the humanity from someone like that is just taking away all of the possiblities they had as a human, IMO. that's also something you have ignored. I say that these are my OPINIONS. You are entitled to you opinion. I'm entitled to mine. Sub-Zero as a human has MORE room for growth and an entertaining story than does Cyber Sub-Zero to me. Period. You can try to say I'm wrong, but that's MY opinion. It's not really yours to judge.

I also didn't like when you said I'm not a fan of Kuai Liang, but a fan of a Ninja. Hell to the nah on that one. I've been arguing that Sub-Zero should just unmask completely forever, and honestly I could deal with him in street clothes. I hate the cyber form though. It was shock value, and I still think NRS intentionally made him cookie cutter good guy in his cyber chapter to make people like him better. People caught on to that though. He could have easily had an encounter with his brother in his human chapter and could have said "You're right we're not brothers." That was one of the best lines from Sub-Zero and just as easily could have been in his human chapter, but they placed certain things in his cyber chapter for a reason. I mean the whole fight with Ermac or Reptile could have been erased for an encounter with his brother in his HUMAN chapter. I just think it was funny how that just so happened to end up in his cyber chapter along with him saving the soldiers. Why couldn't that have been what he was doing when Cyrax encounterd him in the human chapter?

Regardless over everything, I like HUMAN characters. I can't relate to a cyborg. Plain, Simple. I felt Smoke had a good character in the old timeline, despite being a cyborg. In the end though his Smoke ended up freeing him anyway, he wasn't a complete cyborg. Boon even said his Smoke form would have been what he looked like as a human.

Also, why does this site sign me out so quick? If I type for like 10 minutes this thing kicks me out and I have to log back in. I hate it.
Click to expand...


lol, wow dude you missed my point entirely.

EVERYtHING you say about him not being a human

Is 100% untrue. You're just trying your best to make it look bad.

I know for a fact. EVERYTHING I Typed up there was bull shit.

I'm just trying to get you to realize your examples are actually... JUST AS much BS.



The only reason it seems like I'm PRO CSZ. Is because of how ANTI CSZ. you are.

I have to appear PRO CSZ to pull you toward the medium of being able to accept him.


Again you completely whiffed the point.

See how you were easily able to counter every argument because it was BS?

The same is being done to you. All you do is keep bringing up the same lies/points that don't even matter.

"Oh he has no emotions!" lies

"He'll get hacked!" How do you know that? how is that different than saying "oh he'll be quan chi's slave!!"

IN BOTH SCENARIOS HE HAS FULL CONTROL OF HIMSELF, HIS EMOTIONS.

The only difference now is his skin is now armor, his eyes are enhanced, he can't make a facial expression, but his tone of voice voids the use of that completely.

He still feels physical pain
He still feels emotional pain
He still talks with emotion in his voice

He's still Subzero.
 
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Honestly, I think they just need to tone down the cyborg qualities of him. That's the best way to arrive at a middle ground where both sides of the issue can be at peace. I can see why fans of "human" Sub Zero are bothered by CSZ. He does look like a robot.
 
Ricochetmatt said:
Honestly, I think they just need to tone down the cyborg qualities of him. That's the best way to arrive at a middle ground where both sides of the issue can be at peace. I can see why fans of "human" Sub Zero are bothered by CSZ. He does look like a robot.
Click to expand...

but he doesn't act like one. thus the point of calling him cyber.
 
de_nhoj said:
What I don't get is how he can be programmed when he uses a brain rather than code to function.
Click to expand...

I bet it has to do with the fact his new body can cut off control form his mind.

your mind sends neurons through your nervous system telling your muscles to contract.

Technology even today has it where you can send neuron signals into data, to move mechanical arms. Saw a monkey controlling a robot arm.

Now all you gotta do to prevent that is to prevent that distinction. dis-allowing the mind to put in signals to control their body. That's why Subzero saw what he did and couldnt' stop himself.

What Jax did was re-instate his minds ability to control his body. the reason they kept his mind is that I'd have to guess his fighting skills and reaction time and the way he thinks about fighting will still be transmitted through what he sees, and the programs can read the best "move" to use at a specific time to win battles. Because you can't perfectly program a robot to "feel" and adapt to a fight like a human would. which is why lin keui needed him and his brain.


that's why AI in fighting games are always garbage.
 
Critical-Limit said:
that's why AI in fighting games are always garbage.
Click to expand...
AI in fighting games are crap because they are terrible at emulating human behaviour, reaction time, etc. I mean look at MK for example they'll fall for jump kicks all day yet 50/50's are irrelevant to them since their reaction time is 1 frame and whether they get hit or not is up to luck. You could 6 frame low poke them while they're standing and they instantly snap to low block as soon as you hit them. Then when they have you stunned via ice ball, net, etc. they walk around and do random things as if they have no idea what's going on.
 
de_nhoj said:
AI in fighting games are crap because they are terrible at emulating human behaviour, reaction time, etc. I mean look at MK for example they'll fall for jump kicks all day yet 50/50's are irrelevant to them since their reaction time is 1 frame and whether they get hit or not is up to luck. You could 6 frame low poke them while they're standing and they instantly snap to low block as soon as you hit them. Then when they have you stunned via ice ball, net, etc. they walk around and do random things as if they have no idea what's going on.
Click to expand...

The reason is because they are pre-programmed to behave a specific way depending on YOUR behavior.

Sometimes they cheat by having the game read your inputs before you finish them and make the computer react to your inputs.

But most of the time, say for example. in super smash brothers. If you run full speed at a level 9, and wave dash backwards. They will always whiff an attack.

Anytime you shield they instantly try to grab you. So you can just shield, wait for the grab. And spot dodge into punish.

Because AI will always behave according to your actions. You can easily exploit them out of their loopholes.
 
Metal Overlord said:
Don't get why you would come to that conclusion.

What they were really trying to do is portray his greater sense of morality and overall change for the better since his reprogramming.

You may call that a "cookie-cutter" good guy (which isn't really true because it's not like he went out of his way to save a little child from a burning building or something).

But I call that character development.

If anything, I would say Stryker was the one they were trying to make look better. I mean, he fought against and defeated characters like Ermac and Kintaro. Johnny Cage couldn't even defeat Ermac, but Stryker can defeat him and Kintaro? Now that's something to call bullshit on
Click to expand...

You bring up stryker defeating Ermac and Kintaro. Cyber Sub-Zero beat Goro and Kintaro AT THE SAME TIME. They were obviously trying to make his arse look good. You guys can tell me a lot of stuff, but you cannot tell me they weren't intentionally making him look like the ultimate good guy in his chapter to get more people on his side. It was waaaay too obvious. It worked to an extent but most people called out that crap as soon as they seen it.

I still like how he was portrayed better in his human chapter, although I like some of the lines that Cyber Subz got. I thought Cyber Subz was too good for his own good.

Here's a complaint though minor and I could do without so don't you guys all jump on me like white on rice again. Kuai Liang is supposed to be the YOUNGER sub-zero. His voice sounds like a man in his 40's or 50's to me or something though. When I think of Kuai Liang though I think maybe early 30's? Anyone think they should maybe try a new voice actor?
 
"most people called that crap as soon as they seen it"

Care to refer me to these people who called it out? Show me posts, show me websites or threads where many people "called it out"



Intentional or not? He IS a good guy, and why wouldn't you save allies that are captured? aka soldiers.

"Btw just like you're intentionally trying to make CSZ look like a terrible character"



His voice actor is fine to me.
 
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