Who is the strongest zoner in MK 2011 ?

[yautjared]

Sub-Zero is definitive a zoner character, his special moves have this characteristic. He can control ,at the same time, with just one well put ice clone :

- Enemy jump on him
- Enemy sliding on him
- Enemy forward advancement , forward dashes and wake-up attacks

Sub-Zero can take advantage of his ice ball and win any projectile war, since, his ice ball grants him a free hit. OK, you try to exchange projectiles with Sub,but, while your project just cause , let's say , 10% damage on Sub's health ? if Sub hits you, he can uppercut you, or just start a combo, and, if in corner, he can combo you to death ......

His Ice Puddle, despite slow, can be used with EX , and this way , create a big space between him and enemy , if the opponent is being an annoying runaway and just staying in mid-screen or far .....

So, Sub-Zero is a zoner, and a very dangerous one.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

I know a lot about this game and i know what zoning is

Well you saying that "sub isn't a zoner" and that "cage is godlike at zoning because of his offense" pretty much shows that you don't really know what zoning is.

Zoning is a defensive playstyle. It's when you use special moves to occupy/control space and keep the opponent away from you. You don't zone by rushing down your opponent.

Sub-Zero completely shuts down rushdown because ice clone forces aggressive characters like Cage/Sonya/Reptile to walk on their toes and retreat/hesitate/play more carefully. Sub has complete control of the flow of a match because of this.

And like aedanwolfe explained, sub will always win a zone trade because his projectile (ice blast) is a traveling 25% combo. So even if you're a great zoner, you still don't want to trade vs sub so you can't zone like you normally would. Again, control.

So again I ask you, why do you say Sub-Zero isn't a zoner when he's clearly one of the best characters at controlling space? His projectile being "too slow" doesn't change anything to it's usefulness.

 

[Fox17]

I consider Sub a rushdown character, at least how i play with him, I barely do projectile exchange with him, I use the iceball 90% of the times into a combo (2,2,iceball, B+1,2,iceball), and i use slide not only to hit them, to get near them and start another combo, at least thats how i play him.

Cage can be a zoner, keeping you away with his shadow kick and thrwoing u far with his flipkick when you get to near or make a kicks combo and then a flipkick.

I think most of teh chars have some zoning habilities, but I consider SZ more a rushdown char. Also Kabal is not a zoner IMO, he is a rushdown like SZ. But this is just a matter of tastes.

 

[viOleNcE]

Those of you saying Sub-Zero shuts down rushes are right, he does. But what do you think the other player is going to do? Keep rushing? Most players would back off and start throwing projectiles and force Sub-Zero to move in.

Also, Reptile can use an EX Force Ball to throw a very fast force ball, I can throw an EX force ball when I know Sub is going to throw an ice ball and it will already be halfway to him by the middle of his ice ball animation. (If we're talking full screen distance)

Sub-Zero CAN zone, I just find it hard to call him one of the best from my experience.

 

[aedanwolfe]

hes not a easy char to use ill say that much, largely why he was considered weak by many players.

and as for fox17, its a matter of personal taste, i can rush with noob even if i want to, it doesnt make it the most effective strategy (surprises people though)

zoning is about controlling space, in that respect sub zero has the tools to do that very well. also the comments about reptiles zoning is thinking full screen, from midscreen zoning with clone its more in subs favor since you wont be able to block the iceball after spit, and even after a trade he can still slide before you break out. you could jump back to create space, but youd eat a slide (great for catching people jumping backwards)

im definitly not saying reptile is at a severe disadvantage against sub, but he does have to play differently. my quicklist doesnt mean one is by far better then the other, they all are decently close in fact.

 

[vacua]

Sub Zero is a Mix... what do you do if you try to Zone as SZ? If the Opponent is smart, he lets you camp at your Place and tryy to throw iceball at you and punish you then (if teleport charakter as example) iceball does no chip dmg iirc, so? SZ is forced to go in and rushdown his opponent otherwise he will lose because he recieved one projectile with chip dmg and the opponent not.

Does that make SZ a rushdown charakter per se? No... hes an offensiv Charakter with Controlling/Zoning Abilities. Example: try to get out of the Corner vs a SubZero, and hes just standing right before you and his Clone, too. That is SubZeros Zoning, and nothing else. SZ with trying to Zone on Mid-Far distance is useless. At least against alot of Charakters, it is useless.

 

[aedanwolfe]

id say the only character that isnt a mix of zoning/rushing in this game is noob. so saying sub is a mix is kinda given.

 

[viOleNcE]

hes not a easy char to use ill say that much, largely why he was considered weak by many players.

and as for fox17, its a matter of personal taste, i can rush with noob even if i want to, it doesnt make it the most effective strategy (surprises people though)

zoning is about controlling space, in that respect sub zero has the tools to do that very well. also the comments about reptiles zoning is thinking full screen, from midscreen zoning with clone its more in subs favor since you wont be able to block the iceball after spit, and even after a trade he can still slide before you break out. you could jump back to create space, but youd eat a slide (great for catching people jumping backwards)

im definitly not saying reptile is at a severe disadvantage against sub, but he does have to play differently. my quicklist doesnt mean one is by far better then the other, they all are decently close in fact.

Right, it definitely depends on the players. But I'm not dumb enough to try to constantly rush down Sub-Zero with Reptile, I make him come to me, much like I do against Cage players. Sub wants me to run into his clones/ice balls and I want him to run into my force balls. That's usually how a match between me and a Sub player goes, I never give him the chance to pull off a slide or a clone on me.

 

[yautjared]

For those that have doubt about what ZONER means and the concept, you can more or less see this way :

A character with strong zoner feature, has tools to make dificulty to enemy to advance, keep pressure or just rushdown constantly.

A non-zoner character, if insists on fall in "zoner traps" purposely made by strong zoners characters, will constantly lose % of his health bar, and, zoners can make non-zoners characters to step back, backing off retreat and this way, create and control the screen space between him and the opponent, almost creating an "invisible shield" between him and the opponent .... somehow, the zoner character has more chances to foresee and control part of his opponents actions , as limiting advancement, and making him backdash in order to avoid damage and try to recover from huge damage ......

Some zoners are so strong, that , they can control the match staying for some time, in the same place , often midscreen or in the far corner of the screen, and this way, control the opponent, having a security space between him and the opponent .....

Noob is one of the best zoners, he has 2 shadow projectiles, very quick and , with power to trade fire in projectiles wars, he can alternate between both, and, sometimes, fool the enemy, using a ghost ball, what is a very dangerous projectile once hits ..... his up knee shadow is a very useful and defensive move against rushdowns and jumps, his blackhole, despite being the less useful of his arsenal, can be use to zone a little , specially, his front blackhole, and up black hole .... and if things turn a little tough and Noob need to back off, he can use his teleport (more as mind games, anyway .....)

With his shadow slide, he can control the low level, with his shadow run, the middle space, and with his upknee, the up space, so the guy (Noob) is a master on zonning

 

[vacua]

Ah but ive a Question to other Noob Players, do you have many matches where you don't even use one Single Combo? I mean his infight Combos 2,1,2 etc. I was actually wondering myself, because lots, and i mean LOTS, of people dont even come close to me because they dont know how to do. Do you just get in to try Combos or stand there and annoy your enemy the shit out them with spamming Shadows? Sometimes ive a really bad feeling for them, lol. =)

 

[Vulcan Hades]

@Fox17: Well, Sub can be played offensively for sure. He's also very underestimated in that department. But the fact that YOU play him offensively only doesn't mean he's not a zoner.

Cage can be a zoner, keeping you away with his shadow kick and thrwoing u far with his flipkick when you get to near or make a kicks combo and then a flipkick.

So according to this reasoning, Baraka is also an amazing zoner because he has Blade Charge (like shadow kick) and Spin/Chop Chop to anti-air. But we all know Baraka ain't a zoner.

In reality, those aren't really "zoning tools". They're more part of footsies (mid-range/poking game). Baraka is more of a counter + mixup character than a pure zoner. He has good footsies for sure, but that alone doesn't make him great at zoning.

So while I agree that all characters have some sort of zoning/mid-long range tools, this thread is about who is BEST at zoning effectively. So Johnny Cage doesn't qualify. Not by a long shot.

 

[Jim_Vengence]

Kitana isn't an option?

 

[Fox17]

Every char can zone, but still I think Sub is not the best on it. Reptile can zone good in fullscreen but is more a rushdown.

I think everyone can play like they want because most of the characters have tools to play in many different ways, but the best zoner (IMO) are Ermac, Noob, Sindel and Shang because they are purely zoners. Thats what i think.

 

[yautjared]

yeah, Vulcan Hades brings some good points here ..... every character, can "zone" a little, but, of course there are some that are "specialist" in this kind of game .....

Johnny Cage has not enough tools in his arsenal to act as zoner ..... Johnny has a good EX projectile, but, what about his others special moves ?

His shadow kick is not a zoner move, is a offensive move, his flip kick is not a zoner move, is a offensive move to be used as combo complement and wake-up attack, his nut punch is not a zoner move, so, Johnny Cage has all the features for being an excellent rushdown character, very agressive, with lots of pressure moves and some frame advantage, but, he is far for being a strong zoner character .....

 

[aedanwolfe]

Ah but ive a Question to other Noob Players, do you have many matches where you don't even use one Single Combo? I mean his infight Combos 2,1,2 etc. I was actually wondering myself, because lots, and i mean LOTS, of people dont even come close to me because they dont know how to do. Do you just get in to try Combos or stand there and annoy your enemy the shit out them with spamming Shadows? Sometimes ive a really bad feeling for them, lol. =)

depends, if zoning is working and im feeling lazy i see no reason to close space. if the person is making advances/getting around zoning ill take the fight to him.

if i can land a tele (i do it so seldomly usually people forget i have it it seems) you are at the perfect edge of your B+1's combo range, most people think your too far away , in which case i can proceed to knock you to or nearly to the wall where i have 40% meterless combos.

if you block it its hit confirmable and i can shadow slide you or upknee to create space again.

 

[Danno]

Zoning is the ability to control space. Sub-Zero definitely has the tools to keep other characters at a optimal distance. His ice clones in particular make it difficult for characters to approach him. Cage is more of a rushdown character.

I think when a lot of people think of zoners, they think of offensive zoners. Thats probably why noob is so high on the list. Honestly noob is a great zoner and probably him or Sindell are at the top when it comes to offensive zoning.

 

[aedanwolfe]

that would be true, i usually dont think of zoning in terms of offense or defense, its just zoning.

noob-zone master
ermac-damage tight zone
sub-damage defensive zone
reptile-tricky zone rushdown

is usually how i think of them

 

[BrokenJanders]

@Fox17: Well, Sub can be played offensively for sure. He's also very underestimated in that department. But the fact that YOU play him offensively only doesn't mean he's not a zoner.



So according to this reasoning, Baraka is also an amazing zoner because he has Blade Charge (like shadow kick) and Spin/Chop Chop to anti-air. But we all know Baraka ain't a zoner.

In reality, those aren't really "zoning tools". They're more part of footsies (mid-range/poking game). Baraka is more of a counter + mixup character than a pure zoner. He has good footsies for sure, but that alone doesn't make him great at zoning.

So while I agree that all characters have some sort of zoning/mid-long range tools, this thread is about who is BEST at zoning effectively. So Johnny Cage doesn't qualify. Not by a long shot.

+rep my good sir

 

[vacua]

depends, if zoning is working and im feeling lazy i see no reason to close space. if the person is making advances/getting around zoning ill take the fight to him.

if i can land a tele (i do it so seldomly usually people forget i have it it seems) you are at the perfect edge of your B+1's combo range, most people think your too far away , in which case i can proceed to knock you to or nearly to the wall where i have 40% meterless combos.

if you block it its hit confirmable and i can shadow slide you or upknee to create space again.

Yeh, i actually do the same. But sometimes Noobs Zoning feels so absurd strong, that i have bad feelings to my opponents.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Nightwolf isn't a great zoner imo. He's a great "counter" to zoners with reflect and a good mixup character with shoulder+lighting. Sure he can still try to "zone" with arrow and lighting but it really isn't that effective.


I posted this a while ago, but I think it's relevant to bring it again so people understand it all better:

Rushdown= Offensive style based on applying close-range pressure using fast normals, extended strings and mixups. Can build meter well and deal chip damage by keeping an opponent blocking. This fast-paced style is best if you enjoy constant action.

Mixups= Offensive style relying heavily on mixups (low, overhead, throw). The main goal is to force opponent into a defensive guessing situation. This style often gambles for big damage payouts; some setups are riskier than others. If you like fishing for big combos, choose characters with high Mixup Potential & good Combo Damage.

Countering= Defensive style that reacts to opponents offense with their own attacks (specials or normals) with superior range, speed, movement or special properties. Use movement to cause opponent to miss attacks and use pokes to apply pressure intermittently. This style requires good reactions and correct reads on your opponent to be successful.

Zoning= Defensive style that limits opponent's offensive options and mobility. This is usually done at mid to long range using projectiles to deal chip damage and build meter. May have difficulty against characters with specific anti-zoning (teleports) or anti-projectile tools. Often slower-paced style requires patience and ability to maintain optimal range.

Gameplan A= Primary playstyle of character. Gameplan B= Alternate playstyle of character.
Plan A is not necessarily better than Plan B, just more common. Most characters are very flexible and the player will need to be fluid at switching gears during the course of the match. A player can effectively utilize a character in any style, however the listed gameplans are what is considered natural for each cast member considering their given toolset. Character specific matchups will alter optimal play.

Close Range= within sweep distance
Mid Range= outside sweep distance, inside jump-in range
Long Range= outside jump-in range

********** Tier List w/ Gameplay Styles **********
ALL Characters can win. Choose one based on the playstyle that you enjoy.

A+: Even or Advantage in almost all matchups; Disadvantage in fewest matchups
Johnny Cage RC, Kung Lao RC, Nightwolf RC, Raiden CR, Sub-Zero ZC, Reptile ZM

A: Even or Advantage in almost all matchups; Disadvantage in few matchups
Cyber Sub-Zero CM, Kano CZM, Cyrax MZ, Ermac ZC, Kitana CZ, Liu Kang RMZ, Mileena MC, Sonya RC

B+: Even in almost all matchups; Advantage or Disadvantage in few matchups
Kabal MR, Scorpion CR, Smoke CM, Shang Tsung ZM

B: Even in some matchups; Advantage in some matchups; Disadvantage in some matchups
Stryker ZM, Noob Saibot ZC, Jade CZ, Sektor ZC,

C+: Even or Disadvantage in almost all matchups
Jax CR, Sindel Z

C: Disadvantage in almost all matchups
Baraka CM, Sheeva MC, Quan Chi CM

credit to water from TYM

Tier list should probably be updated though. Reptile ain't S tier anymore (was he ever?). He kinda switched place with Kano.

Also it's important to mention that some characters have changed since day 1. For example the new Kano and the new Baraka have decent mixups now thanks to new low/overhead attacks.