The Difference Between Zoning and Spamming

[kyoryoku]

Basically, what you've said through all of that is, you've played people who didn't get last week's memo. All of that is well and dandy, but you realize it only works against someone who has no clue what the hell they're doing, right? Good players can and will dashblock through all of that and manage to get in on you, and then what? The card house falls.

You said yourself that Noob's Shadow Tackle/Slide are his best tools, well then you might want to consider building with them instead of living by them. Just a suggestion.



Completely false statement, but you keep thinking that man, you just keep on thinking that.

I have no clue what last weeks memo is. And no, the card house does not fall. I played a few people that did that last night and you know what I did? Throw. Try blocking that.
As I brought up earlier, both teleports are ineffective AND the ghostball does zero damage. The blackhole can either pull people out of turtling (and they usually jump) or trap them in the corner. I'm not even going to get into a debate over this.
So explain how I can build on them?
Let me add some logic. ALL of noobs combos kick the opponent back. Applying previous logic which I had already said, his projectiles go along with "zoning" to keep people back. More so, his projectiles finish his combos.
Since you seem to disagree with me the slide/dash being his best tools, I think you should explain how.
Show me a midscreen combo that I can string and "build" with then because the only ways to do with that, as I said in my original post, is to trap people into the corner. I can do 14-17 hit combos (35-41% dmg) with noob so I think I know the extent of "building."

 

[DarkSpark]

I have no clue what last weeks memo is. And no, the card house does not fall. I played a few people that did that last night and you know what I did? Throw. Try blocking that.

Last week's memo is what I stated, good players will dash block through your zoning. Good players also know how to tech throws, but judging by your comment, you might not have been aware of that little game mechanic. Besides, once a good player gets in, they're not blocking anyway against Noob. They're going all out "balls-to-the-wall" with their rushdown, which it would appear you have little in the way of an actual contingency plan for. If you ever faced down Violence’s Reptile, the gameplan you outlined would send you so far up shit’s creek it wouldn’t even be funny.

And how is my statement false? You for one were not sitting in my living room listening to a guy calling me a noob, and as I brought up earlier, both teleports are ineffective AND the ghostball does zero damage. The blackhole can either pull people out of turtling (and they usually jump) or trap them in the corner. I'm not even going to get into a debate over that.

Newsflash! Noob only has 3 effective moves!!

I thought it was obvious since that was the actual statement of the quote I used.

The Teleport Slams are ineffective because you don't know how to properly utilize them. You also don't really know the true value of what a Black Hole can do from a mindgame standpoint or are aware of its potential alternate usage if you dismiss it as you did. Ghostballs don't do damage because they render the opponent defenseless. It's a setup for offense, and you're basically saying it's ineffective because it's not direct offense?

The tools aren't ineffective, your usage of them is.

Since you seem to disagree with me the slide/dash being his best tools, I think you should explain how.

When did I say that? Right, I didn't. I disagree with this surface one-dimensional mindset most players have of "If I don't zone my opponent to death, I won't win with Noob", because it's a load of horseshit.

Show me a midscreen combo that I can string and "build" with then because the only ways to do with that, as I said in my original post, is to trap people into the corner.

Only corner combos? If you say so.

I can do 14-17 hit combos (35-41% dmg) with noob so I think I know the extent of "building."

Do you now? Well if that's the case you don't need me to tell you any midscreen combos, do you? If you know these combos, then why aren't you utilizing them within your game plan? Are they only corner combos?

Sorry, I'm not a Lego instruction booklet. I'm not here to hold your hand and tell you how to do something that you could probably figure out with a little bit of time in the lab, and I'm damn sure not just going to pour out all of the information and discoveries I've found with him after over 15+ hours in said lab just because you are more comfortable building a sandcastle in the sandbox instead of on the beach. I'm here to broaden your mind on your supposed main, and realize that he's much more than a one-trick pony.

But hey man, if you really feel more comfortable playing in Noob's shallow end, that's your prerogative. Different strokes for different folks. If that's what makes you happy and nets you enough wins where you're satisfied, then hell, go nuts. Who am I to tell you different? Just be aware that what I said holds true, living within Noob's zoning is taking shelter in a house of cards when facing a good opponent. I know, I was there when I first picked up the game two months ago. You don't have to believe me, but ask the creator of this thread Matt Wilson if I know what the hell I'm talking about when it comes to Noob. He recently saw a glimpse of my current Noob, and that was on a laggy server that had inputs being dropped.

 

[CYD]

It seems there's a lot of angst around Noob and the notion of "spamming". I rarely use noob, because I haven't bothered to learn strategies with him. If my opponent is eager enough to choose noob before I pick my character, I almost always choose smoke.
If they are going to use predictable shadow clones or slides, I will answer with anti projectile. At full screen you can even teleport before the clone reaches. I look forward to practicing my anti projectile "reaction" time to clones.

For about any other character, with or with out a teleport, people that rely soley on the clone and up kick, have a simple yomi game. They throw clones until you start jumping over them. Then when you get close they do the kick followed by another clone to push you back.

Jumping two clones should get you within range to punish a whiffed kick with the right special. That about always works. Most of the characters that I use can punish with full combo after specials. Ermac tkl, Nightwolf EX lightning, Spear, Freeze, net, etc...If you can jump a clone to get in and bait an upkick, then maybe you should try a simpler tactic of getting in to midscreen, just jump one clone and throw a projectile. They will have to eat it or block it, then you should have advantage unless you have a really slow projectile (ermac) in which case at mid screen you should be using TKP not the fireball in this scenario.

Perhaps jumping a clone is simply out of your bag of tricks, and too difficult to manage. Then eat a clone and/or build meter, then use an enhanced special with armor to punish the next clone and gain advantage. (Raiden's Superman, Cage Shadow Kick, NW Shoulder Charge etc...) If they like to follow the punish with a clone, plan accordingly, if they like to teleport, plan accordingly...but keep up on the pressure in this case, because you can't trade damage for meter to use Enhanced moves to win, only to get out of a full screen scenario.

The noob Noob players are not that challenging if you know what to do.

 

[Theme]

First post. Yay.

Anyways, in my honest opinion, Noob Saibot is a strong zoning character. Theres a difference between zoning and spamming, as the original OP said. People who disagrees are also the same people who cannot overcome such a play style, therefore, they find an excuse with the opponent rather than figure how to get out of the situation themselves. Its just easier blaming someone than oneself.

 

[Sky Valley]

there is a short period of time where it's ok to spam to get the opponent to back off(some characters are meant to play like this) but when someone is constanly using the same range attack throughout the game, that is where it becomes unacceptable

winning is still winning, theres no question about that, but its how you do it that shows if you are an experienced player or not.you can either go about being a scrub douche and zone the whole game(spam), or actually prove that you have skill. You would think that more people could see the difference but aparently not, I hope this does not encourage more people to believe spam is acceptable.

to all you real spammers, go die in a fire, You know who you are.

 

[Pakman]

If I'm playing as Stryker, and I'm full screen away from Kitana, you know what I'm going to do? Gun shot. I'm going to repeatedly shoot her until she either ducks, blocks, fan tosses or starts jumping and every time I do I gain meter. If she jumps over the bullets, I will throw grenades.

You know what Kitana is going to do if she gets by all that? She will out poke me - her range on her normal attacks are about twice that of mine. These pokes lead into 30% damage combos. She has a blatant advantage over me at that close range. But, at long range, I have the advantage. Yes it is entirely possible for me to land combos on Kitana up close with exceptionally good reads, but it is very risky doing so because of Kitana's attack range (and overall threat level as a result). It's clearly in my best interest to zone (or as some of you guys like to call it, spam) her from full range because that way it's harder for HER to get any damage on me.

If you don't understand that basic match-up example, you won't get far with fighting games.

 

[Theme]

you can either go about being a scrub douche and zone the whole game(spam), or actually prove that you have skill. You would think that more people could see the difference but aparently not, I hope this does not encourage more people to believe spam is acceptable.

It also takes skill to overcome that obstacle. If you're saying that the one who is throwing projectiles and zoning has no skill because he or she continuously does so and doesn't show skill because of it, wouldn't it mean that you also have no skill because you cannot beat a newbie zoner/spammer (whatever you call it?)?? It really doesn't matter in the end, because the winner won. Its up to the loser to find out why he lost, not make up an excuse and blame the other player, because in the end, if your playing a fighting game, you want to come out on top as the winner.

 

[Yohoho]

It also takes skill to overcome that obstacle. If you're saying that the one who is throwing projectiles and zoning has no skill because he or she continuously does so and doesn't show skill because of it, wouldn't it mean that you also have no skill because you cannot beat a newbie zoner/spammer (whatever you call it?)?? It really doesn't matter in the end, because the winner won. Its up to the loser to find out why he lost, not make up an excuse and blame the other player, because in the end, if your playing a fighting game, you want to come out on top as the winner.

This. Fighting games are all about adapting. If you can't beat a zoner, don't call him a "newb spammer!" because what does that make you? If you're owning spammers/zoners, why complain? No matter how annoying it may be, it's always going to be around.

I think it's kind of funny how no one ever mentions Shang Tsung as a spammer even though most of his game is projectiles. Yes, he requires more skill than other zoners, but why discriminate because of a character's ease of use?

 

[aedanwolfe]

i enjoy "spamming" with noob

i also enjoy blackhole resets, because those also work on "noobs"

i also enjoy switching it up and going offense vs smokes and watching them rage as i punish there teleports all day long.

 

[Eks]

If I'm playing as Stryker, and I'm full screen away from Kitana, you know what I'm going to do? Gun shot. I'm going to repeatedly shoot her until she either ducks, blocks, fan tosses or starts jumping and every time I do I gain meter. If she jumps over the bullets, I will throw grenades.

You know what Kitana is going to do if she gets by all that? She will out poke me - her range on her normal attacks are about twice that of mine. These pokes lead into 30% damage combos. She has a blatant advantage over me at that close range. But, at long range, I have the advantage. Yes it is entirely possible for me to land combos on Kitana up close with exceptionally good reads, but it is very risky doing so because of Kitana's attack range (and overall threat level as a result). It's clearly in my best interest to zone (or as some of you guys like to call it, spam) her from full range because that way it's harder for HER to get any damage on me.

If you don't understand that basic match-up example, you won't get far with fighting games.

Dude. You seem to know a lot about fighting games, and this game in particular, so you've obviously spent a lot of time with the game and have a big interest in the game. With that in mind, I don't see how you can't see how cheap and boring this "style" of playing is. Yeah, "a win is a win", but don't you think it's pretty lame that someone can win with the same 2-3 moves against someone who's spent a lot of time mastering a character on a level where they can reverse the entire match by landing a single poke?

 

[aedanwolfe]

Dude. You seem to know a lot about fighting games, and this game in particular, so you've obviously spent a lot of time with the game and have a big interest in the game. With that in mind, I don't see how you can't see how cheap and boring this "style" of playing is. Yeah, "a win is a win", but don't you think it's pretty lame that someone can win with the same 2-3 moves against someone who's spent a lot of time mastering a character on a level where they can reverse the entire match by landing a single poke?

i dont know about him but i dont. itd be like slowing down in a race so the other guys can have a chance too. it slaps the spirit of competition in the face. however, if you were being friendly and not playing to win, there is nothing wrong with not doing said strategy either. and its not boring, boring is dialing a combo, with zoning (ie not spamming) its much more engrossing cuz your having to pay attention to more.

whats interesting is zoning, 50/50 mixups/guessing games, hit confirmable strings that can be broken into said 50/50's. hell footsies is more entertaining to do/watch then someone pressing his bnb without using his mind.

to each thee own tho, not saying its everyones opinions, just mine

 

[Yohoho]

Dude. You seem to know a lot about fighting games, and this game in particular, so you've obviously spent a lot of time with the game and have a big interest in the game. With that in mind, I don't see how you can't see how cheap and boring this "style" of playing is. Yeah, "a win is a win", but don't you think it's pretty lame that someone can win with the same 2-3 moves against someone who's spent a lot of time mastering a character on a level where they can reverse the entire match by landing a single poke?

To be honest, almost everyone is a spammer because most people use the same 2 or 3 combos all match with some lone specials thrown around too. Instead of spamming specials, they spam combos. Which, in a way, is the same thing. It's not like you play against people that pull out 5 different basic combos, then 5 different expert combos or anything. I dunno, if someone has worked super hard "to master a character," they should be able to deal with spammers pretty easily MO.

 

[Pakman]

Dude. You seem to know a lot about fighting games, and this game in particular, so you've obviously spent a lot of time with the game and have a big interest in the game. With that in mind, I don't see how you can't see how cheap and boring this "style" of playing is. Yeah, "a win is a win", but don't you think it's pretty lame that someone can win with the same 2-3 moves against someone who's spent a lot of time mastering a character on a level where they can reverse the entire match by landing a single poke?

I agree it appears to be lame, cheap, boring etc but I'm playing to the strengths of my character. If you've mastered the range of your pokes and combos, that's all well and dandy, but you're going to have to get close to me to land it. And I have no intention of letting that happen.

 

[Matt Wilson]

You don't have to believe me, but ask the creator of this thread Matt Wilson if I know what the hell I'm talking about when it comes to Noob. He recently saw a glimpse of my current Noob, and that was on a laggy server that had inputs being dropped.

Don't act like you trumped me sir, that's when I barely picked up Sub-Zero. My training isn't formal but I've got a lot more practice now. >=)
Besides, you didn't exactly obtain a flawless victory either, so hopefully a rematch is in the near future.

 

[Asodimazze]

If I'm playing as Stryker, and I'm full screen away from Kitana, you know what I'm going to do? Gun shot. I'm going to repeatedly shoot her until she either ducks, blocks, fan tosses or starts jumping and every time I do I gain meter. If she jumps over the bullets, I will throw grenades.

You know what Kitana is going to do if she gets by all that? She will out poke me - her range on her normal attacks are about twice that of mine. These pokes lead into 30% damage combos. She has a blatant advantage over me at that close range. But, at long range, I have the advantage. Yes it is entirely possible for me to land combos on Kitana up close with exceptionally good reads, but it is very risky doing so because of Kitana's attack range (and overall threat level as a result). It's clearly in my best interest to zone (or as some of you guys like to call it, spam) her from full range because that way it's harder for HER to get any damage on me.

If you don't understand that basic match-up example, you won't get far with fighting games.

Pakman when you're online I'd like to spar against your Stryker, if for you is ok

 

[Matt Wilson]

To be honest, almost everyone is a spammer because most people use the same 2 or 3 combos all match with some lone specials thrown around too. Instead of spamming specials, they spam combos. Which, in a way, is the same thing. It's not like you play against people that pull out 5 different basic combos, then 5 different expert combos or anything. I dunno, if someone has worked super hard "to master a character," they should be able to deal with spammers pretty easily MO.

My definition of a 'combo spammer' still stands. Using Scorpion as an example, 1,1,1 seems to be a common theme among most Scorpion players because its the easiest/fastest combo they have, plus with the correct timing it can lead into a quick spear or a take down. Essentially though, the combo is deemed useless after awhile because they may know that 1 combo, but the only other things they know are his specials, and that's it. You can mix it up with all the high punches and low kicks you want, but after a match or two, you're going to see that ONE combo coming and block accordingly. (even blocking low to evade the eventual take down because you know that's coming too.)

The problem with 'spamming' is in it's predictability, not the fact that you have to dodge, jump, and block and endless stream of projectiles. Whether it's a projectile or combo spammer, being able to read your opponent and offer the proper counter to their strategy is what separates the good from the great players. Anyone can spam anything against a newb and emerge victorious, but when you play against someone with a REAL level of skill, suddenly you realize that everything you're doing is either being blocked or viciously punished, and if you don't have a back up plan encase your zoning fails, then you're going to fall flat on every high tier match up. So, when you come across a good player in the match making system, I suggest you decline and stick with the people in the negatives; they will be more susceptible to your constant zoning strategy as opposed to someone whose trained against it and knows how to counter it properly.

That being said, I completely agree with Dark Spark, he's a Noob player that knows for the most part what he is doing and knows what he is talking about. (Rematch, sir. ) I think for a lot of 'beginning' Noob players, it all boils down to mechanics. Noob may not be the greatest in an up-front fight, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to pull off either, it's just a lot harder to do with him than it is for more aggressive players like Liu Kang. People realize that it's much easier to 'spam' his shadows and lead into an up-kick than it is looking for an opportunity to emit high damage output. Whether they suck with his combos or pulling off high string combos in general, it's much easier to just chip away at an opponents health and play it safe rather than seek out the opportunity when it arises and go 'balls-to-the-wall' against your opponent. Like he said, if it works for you, it makes you happy, and you like slapping newbs around all day, then by all means go for it. But, if you're looking for more of a challenge, or going against higher tier, better players in general, you're not going to learn anything if you don't first admit that sometimes Plan A doesn't always work and sometimes you HAVE to practice with Plan B. Yeah, it's hard, and it takes a lot of time to master. However, if you're seriously interested in getting good at this game, then you'll take our advice and at least TRY practicing other techniques.

 

[whityfrd]

Spamming: Unintelligently repeating the same special move (usually projectile/teleport) with no change in tactics depending on situations.

Zoning: Intentionally keeping distance/pressure on your opponent, either reading their style or forcing them into playing a certain way. Adaptive to close combat situations and able to make good on big damage opportunities.

Spamming requires no skill, where as zoning requires you to adapt and be tactical. A good zoning player will always create opportunities for themselves by keeping their opponent away from them as to gain control of the match, then adjust to their opponent's tactics/counters and act accordingly.

A spammer will, for all intents and purposes, continue to mindlessly throw projectiles or teleports at their opponent with no real strategy other than to hope that their projectiles/teleports will either not be blocked or connect successfully, and if they fail to connect the first, second, third, fifth, or tenth time, rather than change their strategy or adapt to the other's gameplay, they continue to use the same move, over and over again, or 'spam' so as to not actually fight or use combos, but to just keep using their specials to do damage and hopefully win the match.

Spammers are successful on a very low playing level, i.e. newbs (people with no real experience who just bought the game) or people with not enough training on how to counter this style of gameplay. Although most spammers will find themselves winning some matches, they will not win the majority of high level gameplay matches against either top tier players, high ranked players, or tournament players solely based on the fact that their style is deemed 'too predictable', and a good player will know how to counter the same move that's used against him/her repeatedly.

If your desire is to become a better player, to participate in tournaments, or to essentially be 'the best', then sticking with spam is going to get you nowhere. If you refuse to change your strategy or adapt to your opponent's gameplay, you are only setting yourself up for failure. Learning from your mistakes and learning to play better will always guarantee you more successful matches, where 'spamming' will only offer lower odds of winning matches the more players learn how to play the game.

Update: Zoning doesn't *have* to involve repeated moves at all. Zoning isn't just keeping your distance, it's about keeping within a very specific distance, which may not even be a half screen away. It might be just barely within range of a normal move. The idea is to establish this distance and keep it, because it limits your opponent's options and allows you to react more easily, giving *you* the control of the match.

Spamming: Unintelligently repeating the same special move (usually projectile/teleport) with no change in tactics depending on situations.

Zoning: Intentionally keeping distance/pressure on your opponent, either reading their style or forcing them into playing a certain way. Adaptive to close combat situations and able to make good on big damage opportunities.

that pretty much describes a good player. not so much the definition of zoning. we all know what spamming is. zoning is completely different and should be looked upon as a good tactic in the toolbelt of a good player. and repeating combos on a cornered opponent so they cant get a lick in is not zoning. that is a dickish move in the result of successful zoning.

some people need to show some class when playing any online game. theres no money on the line so lighten up and show someone you can put a rational thought together.

 

[Dedamn666]

i dont know i have to say that its spamming if your on the receiving end and loose, or if your on the offensive its called zoning.

 

[DrNate86]

I had a go with Noob recently and he is very easy to play with against average players, I found I was winning matches I wouldn't have otherwise won. Problem is, I found it personally embarrassing just repeating his projectiles, and have no idea if what I was doing can be considered spamming or zoning. Either way, my wins felt dirty. I've decided I am definitely not a fan of Noob.

 

[fredkrueg3r]

@kyoryoku
^Hey, I remember playing you online
Sorry, but I completely disagree.
No one said that YOU have to play on an aggressive offense the whole round. IMHO, the first paragraph has the "sore loser" mentality/plug put into it and that people have to play the way you want them too. Not saying you are one, but picking a character that has a poor chance against Noob to begin with is... dumb. Second, players skill matters more than anything.
Backing off is strategy and it's a good one; constantly switching between offensive and defensive. For an opponent who can't teleport, well, goodluck...

I doubt u have played me since my psn is differnt to my username. I never said you have to play aggressively the whole fight, i merly said blocking and waiting for you opponent to make a mistake is lame and boring. Yes grabbing is an easy counter to this, but i will often stand there looking at them untill they move, just to make them feel like a dick. Picking a character that has a poor chance against noob , basically i pick who i want to play as and usually pick 1st. Alot of these spammers will counter pick , so i didnt intentionally pick baraka to fight noob, he picked noob to fight my baraka. Again i never said backing off isnt a good strategy, i said backing off the whole fight , usually spamming projectiles and waiting for your opponent to jump them, often into your uppercut is both boring and lame, and only works against certain charcters. Such as baraka as his projectile is slow and he has no teleport, i was just using baraka as an example as he is one of the worst charcters to counter this sort of terrible play.

could you please explain this statement ? "the first paragraph has the "sore loser" mentality/plug put into it and that people have to play the way you want them too" as i cannot see it myself.

Thanks.