Commander
Well-known member
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
I just replid to them on twitter, asking them for a release date.
I just replid to them on twitter, asking them for a release date.
MK HD Kollection
- Thread starter Umon Daisuke
- Start date
ShawnBronald
New member
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
Just saw that. I wonder if they didn't get the memo that the game was cancelled ( ;-) ) or, perhaps, they know something we don't and possibly jumped the gun on an announcement. They talk as if it's coming soon. Dammit, this all is so confusing!
Just saw that. I wonder if they didn't get the memo that the game was cancelled ( ;-) ) or, perhaps, they know something we don't and possibly jumped the gun on an announcement. They talk as if it's coming soon. Dammit, this all is so confusing!
Eks
Well-known member
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
The thing about the copyrighting is significant because copyrights are public knowledge so anyone can search the database and thereby find something related to this. Sure, it wouldn't mean that retailers would get a listing for it, but if they'd applied for a copyright on something related to this game, someone would've found it and we'd have our first inarguable (almost) proof of this game's existence. In fact, that's how TRMK discovered the advent of NRS and were able to assume something new was on the horizon for the MK series.
The thing about the copyrighting is significant because copyrights are public knowledge so anyone can search the database and thereby find something related to this. Sure, it wouldn't mean that retailers would get a listing for it, but if they'd applied for a copyright on something related to this game, someone would've found it and we'd have our first inarguable (almost) proof of this game's existence. In fact, that's how TRMK discovered the advent of NRS and were able to assume something new was on the horizon for the MK series.
docmighty
New member
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
LOL didn't mean to come off like that, more so like there's a few things that I just have to have regardless of price, unless it's really insanely priced.
Old School MK stuff, MVC2, and any time I see a magazine or model of my car I have to buy it.
LOL didn't mean to come off like that, more so like there's a few things that I just have to have regardless of price, unless it's really insanely priced.
Old School MK stuff, MVC2, and any time I see a magazine or model of my car I have to buy it.
Undead Warrior
New member
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
I know the 3D think most likely refers to the MK9 demo, but does anyone know how hard it would be to convert the original MK game to 3D?
I know the 3D think most likely refers to the MK9 demo, but does anyone know how hard it would be to convert the original MK game to 3D?
ShawnBronald
New member
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
They're talking about 3D.... like a 3D TV. It's not so much about the visuals as how it's displayed. Considering they are filming new actors for this game, it won't be hard at all.
They're talking about 3D.... like a 3D TV. It's not so much about the visuals as how it's displayed. Considering they are filming new actors for this game, it won't be hard at all.
ShawnBronald
New member
kontankarite
BANALITY
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
Word to your mother.
Word to your mother.
kergon
New member
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
OK, last huge response by me in this topic before any real news comes out, I swear.
No, it's much worse than MK HD where no GT5 release date was officially announced, and the dates were always rumors. They kept on showing slightly better footage, but with no release date, FOR 3 OR 4 YEARS. AND NO APOLOGIES TO ANYONE. Because fans know that delays mean that the game is getting better in that time than a rush job. They released GT5 Prologue because fans wanted anything GT at all after waiting so long. Not at all comparable to this, since we actually ARE getting the real MK game (MK9) with a solid release date very soon, and some of you are going crazy for the side project (MK HD) with no date.
And this still isn't comparable to GT5 because showing GT5 video means Sony acknowledging the game exists (it being official). We are in the dead zone with MK HD, where we know there are PRELIMINARY (early) dates for the game, rumors and inside info that it exists, but nothing official. Without the announcement, nothing is official. The only thing that everyone is mad about is that it didn't release on 11/16. That was totally expected by me and others here since there was no announcement by WB of the game existing and of that date beforehand. Going by retailer list dates when there isn't even an announcement for the game is a joke.
You don't understand. Nobody should say sorry to fans (are you kidding?) because we are not supposed to know about it. I can not say this any clearer. If WB should say sorry to ANYONE, it would be to the retailers for changing the date, but retailers would think IT IS A JOKE if they really got an apology from WB. Because delays happen all of the time, and retailers expect them to happen all of the time. It is not WB's fault, it is not the developer's fault. It is not a mistake or an error- games change course all of the time. Reread my last post again, especially the part about going to Gamestop or your game store and asking how often dates change on average games, and take the advice. You living in France should definitely understand, since most game companies ignore the Europe market entirely without a word when it comes to games releasing there, though it did somewhat get better since the old days.
Actually in this day and age, with PSN and XBox Live and even some retail releases, we can get announcements a few months before all the way up to the day of release, and all during the development time 1 year before you never hear a peep about it, which is a great surprise and is what happened with recent Nintendo Wii games for example - they were announced/revealed at E3, only to be released a few months later, even though they were being worked on for 1-2 years before that. This is what WB is doing with MK HD, so you should be thankful that you didn't hear rumors of MK HD 6 months or more before you actually did, or the wait would be unbearable. This is how it always was before the internet - games would be announced 8 months to 1 1/2 years before release to the media (gaming magazines), and the wait was excruciating. Or you would read a small rumor about an awesome game in a magazine, only to never hear a word about it until 10 months later, or worse, never again. You guys don't know how easy you have it with the instant info and communication with the gaming media. One tiny leak/rumor is global within a minute nowadays. Everyone always want more and more info, and don't have any patience.
And do not blame Ed at all - he is being the most truthful out of anyone. He is telling the truth - he is not allowed to talk about it. Especially if NR is not the studio making it. Contracts are ALWAYS written and signed by companies and people, and there is a 110% chance that he can not talk about it legally before WB's official announcement or he will be sued. THIS IS NORMAL AND HAPPENS WITH EVERY COMPANY. Usually whenever someone in ANY company leaks info that they're not supposed to, they get fired or sued. So by saying that he can't talk about it is making an acknowledgement that the game exists, which is more than anyone else is doing, and is more verification than any retailer date that the game exists. Like I said, believing that WB only put the game on lists to promote MK9 is ignorant of the game industry or any corporation in any industry. To put a game on a retailer list, you need evidence that you're making the game to the head honchos of retail. No company EVER would do this as a lie, especially as big as a mega-corporation as WB. Becuase stockholders need to see evidence also, and they want constant tabs on how the game is doing. If it is a lie, stockholders sell, stock prices drop, and WB loses many many millions of dollars in a few months. Not to mention word of the lie would come out, and fans would lose faith in the games. And who is developing the game? Would the developers be in on this too and be getting paid to pretend to make a non-existent game? This isn't some conspiracy or mystery movie. If a game was put on a retailer list by as big a company as WB, they had evidence to show that the game was really being made at one point. Which doesn't mean that the game can't change dates, which is always expected, if you want to make a good product.
Other companies are doing very quick releases with their HD collections after announcing them, like Sly Cooper and Prince of Persia, and MK Kollection will follow this. But you also have to remember that doing an MK Kollection will take longer than those other games, because they are filming new actors and putting that into the game, which is not needed for updating regular polygon games. So I see news of MK HD coming very soon.
...continued below due to character limit allowed in 1 post.....
OK, last huge response by me in this topic before any real news comes out, I swear.
No, it's much worse than MK HD where no GT5 release date was officially announced, and the dates were always rumors. They kept on showing slightly better footage, but with no release date, FOR 3 OR 4 YEARS. AND NO APOLOGIES TO ANYONE. Because fans know that delays mean that the game is getting better in that time than a rush job. They released GT5 Prologue because fans wanted anything GT at all after waiting so long. Not at all comparable to this, since we actually ARE getting the real MK game (MK9) with a solid release date very soon, and some of you are going crazy for the side project (MK HD) with no date.
And this still isn't comparable to GT5 because showing GT5 video means Sony acknowledging the game exists (it being official). We are in the dead zone with MK HD, where we know there are PRELIMINARY (early) dates for the game, rumors and inside info that it exists, but nothing official. Without the announcement, nothing is official. The only thing that everyone is mad about is that it didn't release on 11/16. That was totally expected by me and others here since there was no announcement by WB of the game existing and of that date beforehand. Going by retailer list dates when there isn't even an announcement for the game is a joke.
Etryus said:
You don't understand. Nobody should say sorry to fans (are you kidding?) because we are not supposed to know about it. I can not say this any clearer. If WB should say sorry to ANYONE, it would be to the retailers for changing the date, but retailers would think IT IS A JOKE if they really got an apology from WB. Because delays happen all of the time, and retailers expect them to happen all of the time. It is not WB's fault, it is not the developer's fault. It is not a mistake or an error- games change course all of the time. Reread my last post again, especially the part about going to Gamestop or your game store and asking how often dates change on average games, and take the advice. You living in France should definitely understand, since most game companies ignore the Europe market entirely without a word when it comes to games releasing there, though it did somewhat get better since the old days.
Actually in this day and age, with PSN and XBox Live and even some retail releases, we can get announcements a few months before all the way up to the day of release, and all during the development time 1 year before you never hear a peep about it, which is a great surprise and is what happened with recent Nintendo Wii games for example - they were announced/revealed at E3, only to be released a few months later, even though they were being worked on for 1-2 years before that. This is what WB is doing with MK HD, so you should be thankful that you didn't hear rumors of MK HD 6 months or more before you actually did, or the wait would be unbearable. This is how it always was before the internet - games would be announced 8 months to 1 1/2 years before release to the media (gaming magazines), and the wait was excruciating. Or you would read a small rumor about an awesome game in a magazine, only to never hear a word about it until 10 months later, or worse, never again. You guys don't know how easy you have it with the instant info and communication with the gaming media. One tiny leak/rumor is global within a minute nowadays. Everyone always want more and more info, and don't have any patience.
And do not blame Ed at all - he is being the most truthful out of anyone. He is telling the truth - he is not allowed to talk about it. Especially if NR is not the studio making it. Contracts are ALWAYS written and signed by companies and people, and there is a 110% chance that he can not talk about it legally before WB's official announcement or he will be sued. THIS IS NORMAL AND HAPPENS WITH EVERY COMPANY. Usually whenever someone in ANY company leaks info that they're not supposed to, they get fired or sued. So by saying that he can't talk about it is making an acknowledgement that the game exists, which is more than anyone else is doing, and is more verification than any retailer date that the game exists. Like I said, believing that WB only put the game on lists to promote MK9 is ignorant of the game industry or any corporation in any industry. To put a game on a retailer list, you need evidence that you're making the game to the head honchos of retail. No company EVER would do this as a lie, especially as big as a mega-corporation as WB. Becuase stockholders need to see evidence also, and they want constant tabs on how the game is doing. If it is a lie, stockholders sell, stock prices drop, and WB loses many many millions of dollars in a few months. Not to mention word of the lie would come out, and fans would lose faith in the games. And who is developing the game? Would the developers be in on this too and be getting paid to pretend to make a non-existent game? This isn't some conspiracy or mystery movie. If a game was put on a retailer list by as big a company as WB, they had evidence to show that the game was really being made at one point. Which doesn't mean that the game can't change dates, which is always expected, if you want to make a good product.
Other companies are doing very quick releases with their HD collections after announcing them, like Sly Cooper and Prince of Persia, and MK Kollection will follow this. But you also have to remember that doing an MK Kollection will take longer than those other games, because they are filming new actors and putting that into the game, which is not needed for updating regular polygon games. So I see news of MK HD coming very soon.
...continued below due to character limit allowed in 1 post.....
kergon
New member
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
This unrest has been a good thing in a lot of ways. It shows that the fans are in need of a collection like this, and it is easy money for the developer and publisher. It is a positive for everyone involved. WB, being a good publisher the past few years, wants to make the game worthy of as a collection, and of the MK name. MK HD is being allowed for the developer to take it's time (delays) and make it as good as it can be. Which is the same thing that can be said for MK9. Every time in an interview the MK team gets asked about WB, everything they say is positive. (Which didn't happen with them in Midway). WB allowing the MK team an extra few months to add cooler stuff to the game (as well as giving them their own brand new huge studio) is money spent on what is supposedly a better fleshed out deep game in the end. Netherrealms could have released MK9 this year easily, or even in October. If they knew before hand that they wouldn't have the extra time, they would have released a very watered-down MK9. The basic gameplay was finished, but it would have half the characters, very little balancing/QA, bad online code, 1 fatality/character, less backgrounds, etc. We will get a MK Trilogy compared to a regular 1st version MK3 if it was released now.
There WAS no delay, because WB never announced a real date yet. Being on a retailer list without the game being official is not an official date to count on. Yes, it is uncommon for them not to address/announce the game, but not because of the leak, but because it's on retailer lists in the first place (meaning that it actually exists). That's why WB WILL address it, with or without any outcry, when they make the announcement, and it won't change when it happens. A rumor is Kano being playable in MK2. A game on a retailer list is not a rumor or a trick. It is being developed in some way. Read what I wrote above, pertaining to WB leaking it just for controversy. Meaning that it is not possible.
You don't remember because you never paid so much attention to one game's retailer listings and dates than this game. This happens all of the time. Like I said, go to your Gamestop and ask them how frequently the average game moves around its dates, and how common games show up on retailer lists before being officially announced, then moved around or disappear.
We are only in the dark because WB still hasn't made an announcement about the game. They are waiting until a certain time/event, or until they can show good enough quality screens or videos, or until they figure out the real date themselves and how they will will release it. We will hear something from them soon.
I've actually worked at a small game company before (doing graphics for DS/mobile games), so I know how developers and publishers give out their retail info. I've also worked at a game store, and also the distribution side of the electronics section of a big retailer, both when I was much younger. But whatever knowledge I'm speaking about now is just from 25 years of playing games, reading magazines, going to game stores, and trying to understand the industry. Also common sense and patience.
What? that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't understand how that is contrary to anything I wrote. Obviously some products that receive a copyright or trademark or are registered never come out or never start getting made at all. Retailer lists are a step above that, so the game exists or has existed at one point. You noticed that only SOME retailers, online or corner store, have shown MK Kollection and were able to get pre-order money from customers. Not all of them, because most know that the game was not announced officially yet. They take them down from the public to see, because WB tells them to, and because the retailers know that these early non-official dates are very likely to change, or the game could get cancelled. EVERY retailer has the game on their internal retail lists (non-public) with various dates that are place holders. Only when the official date is revealed will all of the stores open up the preorder system to customers for the game. Gamestop is the same as any other store. Each of the different types of stores have the same games on their retailer lists. The official games have exact dates, and are the same across all of them. Publishers can tell them that the date is changed, and they change it to the new date. But for un-official games like this, they could have exact dates or they could have ranges, but they maybe won't be the same for each store. Because even though WB has told (to top guys of retail only) that the game exists and an EARLY UNOFFICIAL DATE (and the info gets trickled down to the stores), it can change, and every store knows this - that the date is not certain because there hasn't been an announcement. Even with a final official date, that date can change and they know this. Sometimes an announcement of the game by the publisher to the media even comes before it hits retailer lists (usually if it's still very far away from release). But it is up to the publisher when to announce it.
So, to everyone:
Hold your horses guys, January is likely to be the very latest we will get an official announcement and date by WB, or even better an announcement and the game released sometime before or with MK9. So before going on any witch hunts, placing blame on people or companies who did nothing wrong and NOTHING OUT OF THE ORDINARY, have some patience. I would take a $400 bet that by the time MK9 comes out, we will either have the game in our hands, or know an OFFICIAL release date if it comes out later next year.
I've spent enough time on this. I actually had to split the post because I hit the character limit allowed in 1 post. I'll be back in the topic when something new appears. And all of you should too.
jarvis653 said:
This unrest has been a good thing in a lot of ways. It shows that the fans are in need of a collection like this, and it is easy money for the developer and publisher. It is a positive for everyone involved. WB, being a good publisher the past few years, wants to make the game worthy of as a collection, and of the MK name. MK HD is being allowed for the developer to take it's time (delays) and make it as good as it can be. Which is the same thing that can be said for MK9. Every time in an interview the MK team gets asked about WB, everything they say is positive. (Which didn't happen with them in Midway). WB allowing the MK team an extra few months to add cooler stuff to the game (as well as giving them their own brand new huge studio) is money spent on what is supposedly a better fleshed out deep game in the end. Netherrealms could have released MK9 this year easily, or even in October. If they knew before hand that they wouldn't have the extra time, they would have released a very watered-down MK9. The basic gameplay was finished, but it would have half the characters, very little balancing/QA, bad online code, 1 fatality/character, less backgrounds, etc. We will get a MK Trilogy compared to a regular 1st version MK3 if it was released now.
There WAS no delay, because WB never announced a real date yet. Being on a retailer list without the game being official is not an official date to count on. Yes, it is uncommon for them not to address/announce the game, but not because of the leak, but because it's on retailer lists in the first place (meaning that it actually exists). That's why WB WILL address it, with or without any outcry, when they make the announcement, and it won't change when it happens. A rumor is Kano being playable in MK2. A game on a retailer list is not a rumor or a trick. It is being developed in some way. Read what I wrote above, pertaining to WB leaking it just for controversy. Meaning that it is not possible.
You don't remember because you never paid so much attention to one game's retailer listings and dates than this game. This happens all of the time. Like I said, go to your Gamestop and ask them how frequently the average game moves around its dates, and how common games show up on retailer lists before being officially announced, then moved around or disappear.
We are only in the dark because WB still hasn't made an announcement about the game. They are waiting until a certain time/event, or until they can show good enough quality screens or videos, or until they figure out the real date themselves and how they will will release it. We will hear something from them soon.
ShawnBronald said:
I've actually worked at a small game company before (doing graphics for DS/mobile games), so I know how developers and publishers give out their retail info. I've also worked at a game store, and also the distribution side of the electronics section of a big retailer, both when I was much younger. But whatever knowledge I'm speaking about now is just from 25 years of playing games, reading magazines, going to game stores, and trying to understand the industry. Also common sense and patience.
What? that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't understand how that is contrary to anything I wrote. Obviously some products that receive a copyright or trademark or are registered never come out or never start getting made at all. Retailer lists are a step above that, so the game exists or has existed at one point. You noticed that only SOME retailers, online or corner store, have shown MK Kollection and were able to get pre-order money from customers. Not all of them, because most know that the game was not announced officially yet. They take them down from the public to see, because WB tells them to, and because the retailers know that these early non-official dates are very likely to change, or the game could get cancelled. EVERY retailer has the game on their internal retail lists (non-public) with various dates that are place holders. Only when the official date is revealed will all of the stores open up the preorder system to customers for the game. Gamestop is the same as any other store. Each of the different types of stores have the same games on their retailer lists. The official games have exact dates, and are the same across all of them. Publishers can tell them that the date is changed, and they change it to the new date. But for un-official games like this, they could have exact dates or they could have ranges, but they maybe won't be the same for each store. Because even though WB has told (to top guys of retail only) that the game exists and an EARLY UNOFFICIAL DATE (and the info gets trickled down to the stores), it can change, and every store knows this - that the date is not certain because there hasn't been an announcement. Even with a final official date, that date can change and they know this. Sometimes an announcement of the game by the publisher to the media even comes before it hits retailer lists (usually if it's still very far away from release). But it is up to the publisher when to announce it.
So, to everyone:
Hold your horses guys, January is likely to be the very latest we will get an official announcement and date by WB, or even better an announcement and the game released sometime before or with MK9. So before going on any witch hunts, placing blame on people or companies who did nothing wrong and NOTHING OUT OF THE ORDINARY, have some patience. I would take a $400 bet that by the time MK9 comes out, we will either have the game in our hands, or know an OFFICIAL release date if it comes out later next year.
I've spent enough time on this. I actually had to split the post because I hit the character limit allowed in 1 post. I'll be back in the topic when something new appears. And all of you should too.
Undead Warrior
New member
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
I knew they could make the images 3d, my tv can do a crude 3d conversion. I just didn't know if that would screw up the enging.
kergon
New member
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
Sony revealing a PS3 exclusive on December 12 on Spike.
Just saw this. Interesting. This could be any game really, or even more importantly, it could be more than one game announcement. But everything sounds about right for MK Kollection to be one of the possible options.
Sony revealing a PS3 exclusive on December 12 on Spike.
Just saw this. Interesting. This could be any game really, or even more importantly, it could be more than one game announcement. But everything sounds about right for MK Kollection to be one of the possible options.
bronshonald
BANALITY
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
no doubt they would go all out like that to announce mk kollection
no doubt they would go all out like that to announce mk kollection
BBBLP
Robot Rock
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
Great find! My faith in this game has been restored
Great find! My faith in this game has been restored
SUBZ808
New member
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
I've spent enough time on this. I actually had to split the post because I hit the character limit allowed in 1 post. I'll be back in the topic when something new appears. And all of you should too.[/QUOTE]
Wow, you're right Kregon, that was a long post! but you make a lot of sense. I've been a pretty outspoken pessimist about this from the get go, but I think this game will show up, just not when we expected it. The only thing that I find strange is Warner giving us a double dose of MK in a 2-3 month time span, because in essence MK HD and MK 2011 are quite similar(both covering MK 1 - UMK3) I'm sure casual players would buy 1 or the other. but in the end I do think this is coming out, but I think it'll be bundled with MK 2011 as a kollector's edition. But it looks as though they're taking their time with it, imagine how awesome it will be when it comes out! And as far as being frustrasted by Mr. Boon and NR's indirectess and secrecy, I dont care anymore after seeing how awesome Sub Zero looks in the moves trailer I know MK 2011 will be epic, and any other little tidbits we're gonna get will be worth the wait. I can't wait to see what direction they take with (hopefully human) Smoke. Till then we must endure, and thats about it.
I've spent enough time on this. I actually had to split the post because I hit the character limit allowed in 1 post. I'll be back in the topic when something new appears. And all of you should too.[/QUOTE]
Wow, you're right Kregon, that was a long post! but you make a lot of sense. I've been a pretty outspoken pessimist about this from the get go, but I think this game will show up, just not when we expected it. The only thing that I find strange is Warner giving us a double dose of MK in a 2-3 month time span, because in essence MK HD and MK 2011 are quite similar(both covering MK 1 - UMK3) I'm sure casual players would buy 1 or the other. but in the end I do think this is coming out, but I think it'll be bundled with MK 2011 as a kollector's edition. But it looks as though they're taking their time with it, imagine how awesome it will be when it comes out! And as far as being frustrasted by Mr. Boon and NR's indirectess and secrecy, I dont care anymore after seeing how awesome Sub Zero looks in the moves trailer I know MK 2011 will be epic, and any other little tidbits we're gonna get will be worth the wait. I can't wait to see what direction they take with (hopefully human) Smoke. Till then we must endure, and thats about it.
kontankarite
BANALITY
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
Nope. I don't care if Sony is revealing something on Dec. 17th. This is JUST an HD remake, not something so monumental that it needs its own event.
Nope. I don't care if Sony is revealing something on Dec. 17th. This is JUST an HD remake, not something so monumental that it needs its own event.
SUBZ808
New member
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
Agreed, I don't think this'll be MK-HD either, I'm interested to see what it will be, but I think It'll be a much more high profile game. I think if there will be an announcement, It'll be in the form of showing up as a listing at Gamestop, cause a high profile reveal like this would steal thunder from MK 2011
Agreed, I don't think this'll be MK-HD either, I'm interested to see what it will be, but I think It'll be a much more high profile game. I think if there will be an announcement, It'll be in the form of showing up as a listing at Gamestop, cause a high profile reveal like this would steal thunder from MK 2011
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Lex_Lutha111384
Member
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
what is going on on Dec 17th???? sony is making an anouncement?? please explain
what is going on on Dec 17th???? sony is making an anouncement?? please explain
kontankarite
BANALITY
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
Nothing at all to do with Mortal Kombat. Don't sweat it.
Nothing at all to do with Mortal Kombat. Don't sweat it.
jarvis653
New member
Re: MK Arcade Collection in November (?)
kergon, anyone that writes longer posts than my own deserves respect from me haha...
But seriously, I've read what you wrote thoroughly and you know what? I can admit when I'm wrong. Despite my tendency to debate almost anything, I'll always succumb to logic. So for now, I'm setting my grievances aside and just sitting it out. Thanks for taking the time to write such an informative post.
kergon, anyone that writes longer posts than my own deserves respect from me haha...
But seriously, I've read what you wrote thoroughly and you know what? I can admit when I'm wrong. Despite my tendency to debate almost anything, I'll always succumb to logic. So for now, I'm setting my grievances aside and just sitting it out. Thanks for taking the time to write such an informative post.