Roster Speculation

[Tarkatan Trash]

Newsflash: They sure as hell were not.
The father took the sons with him to move back to China and they trained as Lin Kuei.
There was no kidnapping in Mythologies.

In MK9, the Lin Kuei killed their parents and kidnapped them as children.
If you need futher proof, go watch Sub-Zero's MK9 ending, where it says "....that the Lin Kuei were ultimately responsible for the deaths of both Sub-Zero's and Scorpion's families."

Here's an excerpt from http://web.archive.org/web/19980430170922/http://mythologies.dragondata.com/SUBLIN01.html

"Its warriors are chosen at birth to be raised apart from the workings of day to day civilization and are stripped of their former lives."

As open to interpretation as that may seem, that does imply kidnapping to me...

And besides, even if you changed the minor details or even the language of the story, that bio STILL falls short of retconning Mythologies. The end of Scorpion's chapter is concrete proof that Mythologies is still canon.

"Despite my efforts, my vision has come to pass. An unfortunate end, he once defended Earthrealm from the Netherrealm armies of Shinnok and Quan Chi."

Although I must additionally counter-argue before certain discrepancies are pointed out that Bi-Han only defended Earthrealm because he got a VERY stern scolding from Raiden, this very quote from Raiden in MK9 is still significant in backing up whether or not Mythologies is still canon. Now what was the central plot to Mythologies again?

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[Commander]

Here's an excerpt from http://web.archive.org/web/19980430170922/http://mythologies.dragondata.com/SUBLIN01.html

"Its warriors are chosen at birth to be raised apart from the workings of day to day civilization and are stripped of their former lives."

As open to interpretation as that may seem, that does imply kidnapping to me...

How convenient of you to also leave this part out:

"Born in America, Sub-Zero was the oldest of three children, which included a brother and sister. Their mother wanted a normal life for her sons, who had already been chosen by the Lin Kuei to become warriors for the clan. She tried in vein to hide them from their father whose own life in America was only a cover for his true identity and purpose. Eventually they were found and their father returned with them to his homeland."

^^^
That doesn't sound like kidnapping.

And besides, even if you changed the minor details or even the language of the story, that bio STILL falls short of retconning Mythologies. The end of Scorpion's chapter is concrete proof that Mythologies is still canon.

"Despite my efforts, my vision has come to pass. An unfortunate end, he once defended Earthrealm from the Netherrealm armies of Shinnok and Quan Chi."

Although I must additionally counter-argue before certain discrepancies are pointed out that Bi-Han only defended Earthrealm because he got a VERY stern scolding from Raiden, this very quote from Raiden in MK9 is still significant in backing up whether or not Mythologies is still canon. Now what was the central plot to Mythologies again?

Not so.
If their childhood kidnapping and killing of their parents is canon in MK9, then the Mythologies story is retconned.
Their childhood takes place WAY before Mythologies.

Scorpions chapter ending proves nothing.
That's vague, and you're just pulling at straws.
It just simply states that he defended EarthRealm from the armies of Shinnok and Quan Chi, which he did.
It says nothing of him tracing back to get the amulet, nor does it mention the previous Mythologies storyline conquest in the past.

Bi-Han didn't defend Earth in MK9 because he got a scolding from Raiden.
Bi-Han defended Earth because "Victory for Shang Tsung means the end of Earthrealm AND THE LIN KUEI." - (Raiden to Cyrax)
Bi-Han defended the Lin Kuei and was loyal to the clan, not Earthrealm. It's just convenient that the Lin Kuei are on Earthrealm.

 

[Tarkatan Trash]

[MENTION=5028]Araknyd_Commander[/MENTION]

Which was BIGGER to the main plot of Mythologies? Childhood backstory or "he once defended Earthrealm from the Netherrealm armies of Shinnok and Quan Chi"?

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[Commander]

[MENTION=5028]Araknyd_Commander[/MENTION]

You still owe me an explanation of what "he once defended Earthrealm from the Netherrealm armies of Shinnok and Quan Chi" means to you. It was in direct reference to Bi-Han, by the way.

For now it just means THAT to me:
"He once defended Earthrealm from the Netherrealm armies of Shinnok and Quan Chi."
Just that.
You cannot just automatically assume that it's Mythologies related, just as I cannot automatically assume that it's not Mythologies related.
That quote is very vague.

The only 2 things that speak to the contrary of Sub-Zero's origins (for both brothers) is his MK9 BIO where it says that he and Kuai-Liang were kindnapped, and his MK9 ladder ending where it says that the Lin Kuei were responsible for the deaths of his and Scorpion's families.
Meaning that (in MK9), when Bi-Han and Kuai-Liang were kids the Lin Kuei killed their parents and sister, and kidnapped them in the process, contrary to the original timeline origins.

 

[Tarkatan Trash]

Sub-Zero's backstory was NOT a factor in the MAIN plot of Mythologies; Quan Chi and Shinnok's schemes and Sub-Zero's attempt to stop them were. In fact, the latter is the main plot of Mythologies.

How does retconning the minor details of a game's backstory retcon the entire game if the MAIN plot is still intact? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

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[Ricochetmatt]

Really it comes down to this : What MK9 gives you for lore is all that really matters right now. The series has been reset. Many things have been retconned. Don't look to past games for answers.

 

[Tarkatan Trash]

Really it comes down to this : What MK9 gives you for lore is all that really matters right now. The series has been reset. Many things have been retconned. Don't look to past games for answers.

The main plot of Mythologies was still acknowledged in MK9. That makes Mythologies (which happened pre-MK1, which was where the timeline was changed, to begin with) still canon.

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[Ricochetmatt]

The main plot of Mythologies was still acknowledged in MK9. That makes Mythologies (which happened pre-MK1, which was where the timeline was changed, to begin with) still canon.

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That doesn't make the entire game canon. It only makes the particular bit that was referenced canon to the current lore.

 

[Tarkatan Trash]

That doesn't make the entire game canon. It only makes the particular bit that was referenced canon to the current lore.

Scorpion killed by Bi-Han? Happened in Mythologies.

Scorpion's clan and family killed in its entirety? Happened in Mythologies.

The Lin Kuei in general and Sub-Zero in particular framed of that massacre? Happened in Mythologies.

Quan Chi the real killer? Happened in Mythologies.

Quan Chi and Shinnok's schemes originally aided by and later foiled by Sub-Zero? The main plot of Mythologies itself.

Which of the above events was EXPLICITLY retconned in MK9 again?

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[Commander]

Sub-Zero's backstory was NOT a factor in the MAIN plot of Mythologies; Quan Chi and Shinnok's schemes and Sub-Zero's attempt to stop them were. In fact, the latter is the main plot of Mythologies.

How does retconning the minor details of a game's backstory retcon the entire game if the MAIN plot is still intact? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

His backstory matters because given that his MK9 BIO is different, it means that things may not have gone down the same way as in the old timeline.
Sure, he stopped the Netherrealm armies of Shinnok and Quan Chi, but you don't know if Shinnok and Quan Chi's schemes leading up to MK9 were the same or not as in Mythologies.
You're just assuming that.


[MENTION=5232]Ricochetmatt[/MENTION] summed it up nicely, actually:

Really it comes down to this : What MK9 gives you for lore is all that really matters right now. The series has been reset. Many things have been retconned. Don't look to past games for answers.

 

[Tarkatan Trash]

His backstory matters because given that his MK9 BIO is different, it means that things may not have gone down the same way as in the old timeline.
Sure, he stopped the Netherrealm armies of Shinnok and Quan Chi, but you don't know if Shinnok and Quan Chi's schemes leading up to MK9 were the same or not as in Mythologies.
You're just assuming that.


[MENTION=5232]Ricochetmatt[/MENTION] summed it up nicely, actually:

And how was his backstory a more significant factor in Mythologies than him stopping the schemes of Quan Chi and Shinnok again?

And this is NOT the first time I have seen the use of minor details to discredit the canonicity of Mythologies, by the way. A few years back, I was being told that Mythologies wasn't canon simply because Ed Boon didn't make it.

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[Commander]

Scorpion killed by Bi-Han? Happened in Mythologies.

Proves nothing.
Also happened in MK1, before Mythologies came out.

Scorpion's clan and family killed in its entirety? Happened in Mythologies.

Proves nothing.
Also happened before MK1 (and is in Scorpion's MK1 bio and ending), before Mythologies came out

The Lin Kuei in general and Sub-Zero in particular framed of that massacre? Happened in Mythologies.

Changed.
Only Bi-Han was blamed in MK9 for the murder of Scorpion's family AND the massacre.

Quan Chi the real killer? Happened in Mythologies.

Partially changed.
Lin Kuei ACTUALLY responsible for the deaths of Scorpion and Sub-Zero's families, per Sub-Zero's MK9 ending.

Quan Chi and Shinnok's schemes originally aided by and later foiled by Sub-Zero? The main plot of Mythologies itself.

Only the foiled part of Mythologies is true in MK9, not Sub-Zero helping Quan Chi and Shinnok.
That part YOU assumed to be true in MK9.

And how was his backstory a more significant factor in Mythologies than him stopping the schemes of Quan Chi and Shinnok again?

Ever heard of the butterfly affect?

 

[Ricochetmatt]

Yeah, I don't remember it being said that Sub Zero aided Quan Chi and Shinnok. I may have missed it... But I have like no memory at all of it.

 

[Tarkatan Trash]

Yeah, I don't remember it being said that Sub Zero aided Quan Chi and Shinnok. I may have missed it... But I have like no memory at all of it.

He aided them by stealing the Map of the Elements, then defeating the 4 Elemental Gods, which enabled Quan Chi to enter the Temple and snatch the Amulet. It was then that Raiden scolded him for what happened and what could happen.

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[Ricochetmatt]

He aided them by stealing the Map of the Elements, then defeating the 4 Elemental Gods, which enabled Quan Chi to enter the Temple and snatch the Amulet. It was then that Raiden scolded him for what happened and what could happen.

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I don't remember this being stated in MK9. What you are describing comes from a past game before the series was reset. Show me the scene within MK9's story mode in which all of that was explained and I will apologize.

 

[Commander]

I don't remember this being stated in MK9. What you are describing comes from a past game before the series was reset. Show me the scene within MK9's story mode in which all of that was explained and I will apologize.

He'll point you to the quote in MK9 which says:

"Despite my efforts, my vision has come to pass. An unfortunate end, he once defended Earthrealm from the Netherrealm armies of Shinnok and Quan Chi."

but that is vague, and doesn't point to Sub-Zero aiding them in the new timeline, after it was reset.
It just states that he stopped them previously.

 

[Tarkatan Trash]

I don't remember this being stated in MK9. What you are describing comes from a past game before the series was reset. Show me the scene within MK9's story mode in which all of that was explained and I will apologize.

It happened BEFORE the rebooted portion. It's still canon. ALL events that happened before the rebooted portion are canon in both timelines. Only the events after the start of the MK1 tournament are subject to the reboot. Mythologies is NOT subject to the reboot. How many times do I have to stress this?

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[Ricochetmatt]

It happened BEFORE the rebooted portion. It's still canon. ALL events that happened before the rebooted portion are canon in both timelines. Only the events after the start of the MK1 tournament are subject to the reboot. Mythologies is NOT subject to the reboot. How many times do I have to stress this?

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Okay, you're not understanding something. It's not just everything beyond Raiden receiving the message that was changed. A lot of things were retconned. One piece being Mileena no longer being a sister to Kitana and growing up with her. She's now discovered by Kitana for the first time during the events of MK2.

 

[Kickinwing420]

It happened BEFORE the rebooted portion. It's still canon. ALL events that happened before the rebooted portion are canon in both timelines. Only the events after the start of the MK1 tournament are subject to the reboot. Mythologies is NOT subject to the reboot. How many times do I have to stress this?

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to be fair....did anybody say the events before MK1 are still cannon? if not then its up for debate and unless somebody from NRS makes it official, then it just dosnt have an answer.

to be honest i bet most the people at NRS couldnt answer this question. they prly couldnt care less weather its cannon or not, cuz there gonna do whatever they want story wise. thats sorta what a reboot is.

 

[Critical-Limit]

1.) It's not my fault that YOU took it that way.
Re-read it, and don't assume.

2.) It IS for no reason, as production costs would be higher for creating a completely new character, whereas an alt with slightly different animations would have likely been substantially less for them to do.
You have STILL not provided a valid reason as to why human and cyber SZ couldn't be in 1 roster slot.

Dude I think you're misunderstanding me.

Do you even know what a clone character is? if you think that has a high production cost you're not paying attention to what I'm saying.