Let's discuss possible SubZero storylines
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Taj Gill
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You have to admit though, as much as NRS ruined Kuai in this game, he had the best lines in Story Mode hands down. Human and Cyber forms.
"Your followers hold you in high esteem, warlord. They fight and die for your amusement. My brother participated in this folly. I do so only to face his killer!"
"Shao Kahn! I challenge Scorpion, the murderer of my brother! You will bring him before me!"
"Come no further, Fiend of Outworld!"
"Your followers hold you in high esteem, warlord. They fight and die for your amusement. My brother participated in this folly. I do so only to face his killer!"
"Shao Kahn! I challenge Scorpion, the murderer of my brother! You will bring him before me!"
"Come no further, Fiend of Outworld!"
Subz 711
New member
You're kidding right? Kuai has not been over hyped, whatever you mean by that. He's just had a good story, and is one of the best developed characters in the whole damn series. He's not overrated because he has accomplishments and 8 games worth of development to back him up. Like Scorpion or not, he has the same. There is good reason why people are fans of theirs. They've been there and they have developed as their respective characters.
Bi-Han as Sub-Zero was there for one game. Hell, had he survived his ending even says he was retiring from duty. It's like the writers always had it planned for his brother to take his place. He was only there for one solitary game. He also got mythologies, but I'd venture to say a good portion of the fanbase doesn't know about that game, and if they do another good percentage think it sucks.
Most only like him because he's the Evil Sub-Zero. You can say that's not the reason and that it's his arrogance or some shit, but Kuai was written to have some arrogance himself in MK9.
Anyway, Bi-Han doesn't have any reason to be as popular as he is because he hasn't really done anything. He only has a tenure of one game.
Same with human smoke. I like Smoke, but they wrote him as a human in this last game and his chapter could have been removed all together. He served no relevance, which shows he should have been cyber. It gave him SOMETHING.
Commander
Well-known member
Good story.
Kuai-Liang being turned into a cyborg is, sadly, the best story stuff that has been written for him in the last 8 games.
Kuai got uber stale and repetitive, as did Scorpion after about MK3.
"You killed my family." "You killed my brother." "Revenge." "I hate you." "I hate you more." <==== Scorpion and Kuai's story summed up from the last 8 games.
Which is why I want him to have the spotlight as Sub-Zero, where he doesn't get killed off within the first few minutes of the game.
No.
Most like him because he is ruthless, and has the "don't give a crap" attitude.
You constantly confuse the ruthless "don't give a crap" attitude for "evil," which isn't so.
Ruthless / don't give a crap attitude =/= evil.
Having a tenure of 1 game is why more people want to see Bi-Han in MKX.
It opens the possibilities to a good "what if" Sub-Zero story, and a chance for Bi-Han and Scorpion to end the stupid revenge shit.
"What if Bi-Han got a 2nd chance as Sub-Zero, and tried to atone for his wrongdoings?"
Kitty_55
Active member
I don't want Bi Han return as Sub-Zero for the sake of still keeping Noob Saibot around. And I cannot accept (unless the writers literally write it this way) Noob's "soul" just ripped right out of him after being kicked in the Soulando and somehow creates Bi Han out of the blue and recreate the rivalry all over again.
Noob and Scorpion never fought each other. E-V-E-R. But it's not like Noob isn't aware what has happened to him. Clearly, he recognizes his own brother, so I doubt Noob/Bi Han forgot about Scorpion. Why suddenly have a character who changed into another, changes back, and goes after a guy who he never bothered to go after when he became that new character? Sorry, I can't have Bi Han come back human and just completely destroys Noob Saibot in the process.
And I don't want to see how people can find a way to make it where Bi Han and Noob can exist in the same game.
Noob and Scorpion never fought each other. E-V-E-R. But it's not like Noob isn't aware what has happened to him. Clearly, he recognizes his own brother, so I doubt Noob/Bi Han forgot about Scorpion. Why suddenly have a character who changed into another, changes back, and goes after a guy who he never bothered to go after when he became that new character? Sorry, I can't have Bi Han come back human and just completely destroys Noob Saibot in the process.
And I don't want to see how people can find a way to make it where Bi Han and Noob can exist in the same game.
Flying Jinko
New member
The problem with Kuai Liang in the old timeline is even if he had a good enough backstory being the grandmaster of the Lin Kuei and all, he never did anything significant in that capacity, atleast as far as the protection of Earthrealm was concerned. He wasn't there at Shang Tsung's palace when all the other earthrealm warriors got slaughtered during MKDA. His presence there would have surely given the earthrealm warriors an advantage. He seemed to be going after his own agenda, discovering the cryomancer caves and having a tour of the living forests during the MKD timeline. He hardly contributed to the fight against Onaga other than kill a few tarkatan lackeys, that too for his own protection.
My point is, if all of this backstory was taken away from him and he was just a Lin Kuei renegade with ice powers assisting the Earthrealm warriors, the story would not have changed at all. What's the point of making a character 'oh so good and powerful' when they are not going to make him a part of the main story? All the 'character development' people claim Kuai Liang has is actually worth nothing.
This is why it would be interesting to see Bi Han as Sub-Zero this time around, but if NRS wishes to go the grandmaster route again with either (or a new) Sub-zeros, I hope he will have more significance.
Subz 711
New member
@FlyingJinko
There's subplots though
He was never really meant to be a part of the main story. See, that's where I don't get people's arguments on this level. Sonya had the OIA side story which was boring as shit. Johnny never had a sidestory at all besides his Hollywood schtick and his character suffered for it. He was just goofball comic relief until his MK9 ending which shows he MIGHT finally get some development, might. Liu Kang was boring as hell too, and a lot of.people were actually glad to see him die in DA because everyone knew he was just there to win the next tournament. Jax is...Jax does ANYBODY care about what he's doing?
These are all the guys who are involved in the MAIN plot, and hell you could break it down and say Raiden and Kang are the only necessary parts of the main plot.
You can't say he didn't mean anything just because he wasn't a part of the main plot. Not everyone is a part of, nor do they all fit in the main plot.
Also Bi-Han doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself at the end of the day. So, good luck with getting him to contribute much either.
There's subplots though
He was never really meant to be a part of the main story. See, that's where I don't get people's arguments on this level. Sonya had the OIA side story which was boring as shit. Johnny never had a sidestory at all besides his Hollywood schtick and his character suffered for it. He was just goofball comic relief until his MK9 ending which shows he MIGHT finally get some development, might. Liu Kang was boring as hell too, and a lot of.people were actually glad to see him die in DA because everyone knew he was just there to win the next tournament. Jax is...Jax does ANYBODY care about what he's doing?
These are all the guys who are involved in the MAIN plot, and hell you could break it down and say Raiden and Kang are the only necessary parts of the main plot.
You can't say he didn't mean anything just because he wasn't a part of the main plot. Not everyone is a part of, nor do they all fit in the main plot.
Also Bi-Han doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself at the end of the day. So, good luck with getting him to contribute much either.
Sn202
New member
I should point out that Bi-Han was only in 2 games as Sub-Zero, only one had a coherent story, and all of the fighting games from MK1 to MK
A didnt have a dedicated story mode, and MK and MK:A were focused on Shujinko and Taven. There was no character development because nobody got character development because there was barely a story.Because they wouldnt expand on the character if he were in a new game after the series has become associated with detailed story modes with character development. Okay.
Tarkatan Trash
Active member
At the time of the final battle against the Deadly Alliance, Sub-Zero is most likely distracted by either the betrayal of Frost and its aftermath, or saving Kenshi's life. And even if he did fight alongside his Earthrealm allies, there's no guarantee it would've turned the tide against the two sorcerers. Actually, it wouldn't have mattered, because these two were empowered by an Amulet, a seemingly endless supply of souls, and a resurrected ancient army that was historically impossible to defeat. The odds were stacked too far against them for even a few more allies to make any difference.
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Subz 711
New member
[MENTION=17789]tarkatan[/MENTION]Trash
You troll sometimes, but something tells me you know your shit.
[MENTION=7297]Sn202[/MENTION]
No there was a story. Kitana is a good example of development. So is Mileena. Hell, even though Scorpion's motive is CONSTANTLY revenge, he also got some development. Noob and Smoke both got REALLY good development in Deception. Oh, and Ermac says Hi too because they saved his whole character in ONE game. It just goes to show that being a part of the main plot does not mean you are an interesting character. All of the main plot characters became bores.
Also, if you want another reason why it wouldn't make sense for the soulnado to happen look no further than Noob Saibot's bios and endings in Deception which explains that he was born because of the evil that resided in Bi-Han. The netherealm just further tainted that evil. Meaning that Noob and Bi-Han are not separate entities.
Also, Bi-Han CARING about anything but himself is out of character. Plus, since what most people like about Bi-Han is his carelessness and asshole attitude, So, what would be the point?
You troll sometimes, but something tells me you know your shit.
[MENTION=7297]Sn202[/MENTION]
No there was a story. Kitana is a good example of development. So is Mileena. Hell, even though Scorpion's motive is CONSTANTLY revenge, he also got some development. Noob and Smoke both got REALLY good development in Deception. Oh, and Ermac says Hi too because they saved his whole character in ONE game. It just goes to show that being a part of the main plot does not mean you are an interesting character. All of the main plot characters became bores.
Also, if you want another reason why it wouldn't make sense for the soulnado to happen look no further than Noob Saibot's bios and endings in Deception which explains that he was born because of the evil that resided in Bi-Han. The netherealm just further tainted that evil. Meaning that Noob and Bi-Han are not separate entities.
Also, Bi-Han CARING about anything but himself is out of character. Plus, since what most people like about Bi-Han is his carelessness and asshole attitude, So, what would be the point?
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Sn202
New member
You're right, but there still wasnt much there. I disagree with you with some of the other things you said about characters, but there still wasnt much there besides bios, intros, and endings.
Because they havent retconned anything before?
Ignoring retcons, what other reason could there be for Noob Saibot to turn back into Bi-Han? The only example of one being thrown into a soulnado was Scorpion, and he escaped into the void before anything really happened, otherwise it was said he would be ripped apart, but that could change, there appears to be multiple different types of soulnados, like the one in the soul chamber. That and the Netherrealm amplifying the taint in his soul could be spinned as being the "Saibot" portion of his being. Oh, speaking of which, again, remember when Noob and Saibot were just parts of his name and Saibot didnt exist in the other games?
Well, i mean, ignoring Mythologies, yeah sure.
In any case, you said he wouldnt add anything, which is naive to think that NRS would include him and just not use him in any way.
Also, what is character development.
-edit-
Here, let me ask something.
I understand you WANT Kuai to be Sub-Zero, not Bi-Han, but everything points to it being Bi-Han, i want you to present a theory of how it could be Kuai, and why he's acting very out of character. If you already did, point me to the post, since i only skimmed a few of the early pages.
Subz 711
New member
[MENTION=7297]Sn202[/MENTION]
Umm, you don't actually READ what I say do you?
One VERY good reason that this could be Kuai is that he's in Quan's possession and his name is still Sub-Zero. Plain and simple.lol. Just because he's cyber didn't magically make him not Sub-Zero. So, we are going to have people referring to Kuai as Sub-Zero and Bi-Han as Sub-Zero in storymode right? You think the dead characters WON'T be addressed?
Quan Chi made a new body for both Scorpion and Noob Saibot. Are you just ignoring that he does this?
Also he could be acting slightly more asshole-ish because...well did you read what the netherealm does to people up there or did you ignore that too? It taints them. It makes them act evil.
I need to see what you are seeing that is so far in Bi-Han's direction that you consider it revealed already though apparently.lol. The ONLY line I've seen that points to him is "Shirai Ryu Dog". That's just an intro though and outside of story mode it makes sense to give them these generic Lin kuei vs. Shirai Ryu lines.
Oh and Saibot still doesn't exist in these games.lol. That's just you taking a tweet and making more of it than what it is. It's still Noob Saibot. Have any of you considered that Noob and Saibot are just Bi-Han and his shadow? It would make sense because you know...that's his power.
Umm, you don't actually READ what I say do you?
One VERY good reason that this could be Kuai is that he's in Quan's possession and his name is still Sub-Zero. Plain and simple.lol. Just because he's cyber didn't magically make him not Sub-Zero. So, we are going to have people referring to Kuai as Sub-Zero and Bi-Han as Sub-Zero in storymode right? You think the dead characters WON'T be addressed?
Quan Chi made a new body for both Scorpion and Noob Saibot. Are you just ignoring that he does this?
Also he could be acting slightly more asshole-ish because...well did you read what the netherealm does to people up there or did you ignore that too? It taints them. It makes them act evil.
I need to see what you are seeing that is so far in Bi-Han's direction that you consider it revealed already though apparently.lol. The ONLY line I've seen that points to him is "Shirai Ryu Dog". That's just an intro though and outside of story mode it makes sense to give them these generic Lin kuei vs. Shirai Ryu lines.
Oh and Saibot still doesn't exist in these games.lol. That's just you taking a tweet and making more of it than what it is. It's still Noob Saibot. Have any of you considered that Noob and Saibot are just Bi-Han and his shadow? It would make sense because you know...that's his power.
Sn202
New member
First off, Ed Boon literally said Noob is the fighter and Saibot is the shadow clone.
Second, because being controlled by a necromancer would make you suddenly very loyal to your former clan and, well i would say the whole "maintaining our innocence" thing, but you'll just bullshit it into the MK4 storyline again despite the fact that it cant, and most importantly, WONT happen.
Let me repeat myself.
THE MK4 KUAI LIANG STORYLINE CANNOT HAPPEN AS IT DID BEFORE FOR TWO REASONS.
1. IT HAPPENED TO BI-HAN IN THE LAST GAME.
2. PROFESSIONAL WRITERS WORK AT NETHERREALM.
And yes, i do read what you say.
Im willing to listen if you actually give some solid evidence other than "NUH UH, ITS KUAI, MK4 STOOPID", but, y'know.
You're not.
We get it, jesus christ, you like Kuai Liang as Sub-Zero, alright, most people do, calm the hell down, jesus christ.
Time_Bubbles
New member
There's really no denying that Original Timeline Younger Sub-Zero is far more developed, important and popular than that Cyber Abomination that was born through MK9.
Anyway, Frost would be very interesting in this new timeline as the Lin Kuei is still under Cyberization, so I don't see her wanting to end up in that Clan, and Kuai Liang isn't the Grand Master. If Bi Han is a wanderer for awhile he could end up teaching Frost in this new timeline. We could than see how she's shaped by her mentor-ship as Kuai Liang too gentle and forgiving towards her while Bi Han isn't so gentle and would understand her desires and how to get her in line.
FYI - Kuai Liang has much cooler Sub-Zero outfits than Bi Han and his Sub-Zero outfit is the default one in MK9 for Arcade and Vs. stuff.
Anyway, Frost would be very interesting in this new timeline as the Lin Kuei is still under Cyberization, so I don't see her wanting to end up in that Clan, and Kuai Liang isn't the Grand Master. If Bi Han is a wanderer for awhile he could end up teaching Frost in this new timeline. We could than see how she's shaped by her mentor-ship as Kuai Liang too gentle and forgiving towards her while Bi Han isn't so gentle and would understand her desires and how to get her in line.
FYI - Kuai Liang has much cooler Sub-Zero outfits than Bi Han and his Sub-Zero outfit is the default one in MK9 for Arcade and Vs. stuff.
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Tanyas Husband
New member
Well if you guys want my take on it, I think that this is a new subby all together.
Or at least I'm hoping so.
Or at least I'm hoping so.
Commander
Well-known member
You're picking and choosing again, in order for it to fit your debate.
You very well know that the "Cryomancer" variation and the "I tire of maintaining our innocence" line could also refer to Bi-Han, but you just stick your fingers in your ears and decide to ignore it.
If Ed Boon specifically said that Noob is 1 and Saibot is the other (shadow clone), then you can take it to the bank that that's exactly what it is.
Another example of you choosing to ignore details, just to suit your debate.
Thank you.
I've also been saying that the MK4 stuff can't happen the same way because the direct interaction between Quan Chi, Sub-Zero and Scorpion happened with Bi-Han in MK9, NOT Kuai.
[MENTION=4770]Subz 711[/MENTION] You keep mentioning that Quan Chi could convince Scorpion that Kuai was also involved, but how do you suppose that will happen, now that Kuai is dead?
Even if Scorpion was somehow tricked and wanted revenge on Kuai, how do you take revenge on the dead?
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