What they are pretty much doing to Sub-Zero (Kuai Liang) (spoilers in a way)
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SUBZ808
New member
EXACTLY, everyone keeps calling us, who are upset over Cyber Sub fanboys, but the bottom line is this is an unwelcome change, why could'nt Sub AND Smoke escape the automation process? why does there HAVE to be 3 cyborgs? honestly since MK3 I always thought the idea of cyborgs in the game were stupid. And as far as Mr. Boon being a fanboy, I really can't say, but Scorpion is shamelsessly at the forefront of the marketing campaign,Doing what might I ask? kicking Sub Zero's ass, Even Kratos kills Sub in his trailer. I even cancelled my Kollectors edition pre order because the damn statue has Sub Zero being killed, you can't expect even a casual fan to not notice this stuff. And I agree that it's very possible this is a F*** you to the classic Sub fans, it is true I can use human Sub, heck even MK II Sub in the game, but the bottom line is within this story Sub is turned into a soda can, and alot of us old school MK fans are'nt happy about it, It's not that I don't welcome change just not this kind of needless change, especially to an icon like Sub Zero, when Smoke was automated all he was was a hidden character in the previous game, no where near the level Sub has with his legacy/story. I just hope its temporary and he does'nt end up all f***ed up like Smoke in the console games, which I could honestly see happening.
Reptikahn
New member
No, it wasn't bizarre because Scorpion will work for anyone just to get his family back, and since it's been proven that Scorpion>Quan Chi power wise even with the amulet it makes perfect sense. What also makes perfect sense is that Scorpion is just a pawn just like every other time. To Quan Chi, to the Elder Gods, to everything. If you can tell me Sub-Zero (Younger) was a pawn, I might believe your statement.
Boon is not a Fanboy?
In other words: WAH SUB-ZERO ISN'T ELDER GOD CHAMPION, BOON B FANBOY. Never mind Sub-Zero has no reason to serve the Elder Gods, unlike Scorpion who wants to regain his family and clan. Next time stop ignoring concepts just because you don't like a character or understand his ambition/motivation.
Second, because Sub-Zero didn't just originate as a Blue colored Scorpion. I'm certain of that/sarcasm.
Big problem with this idea:
1) Dante wasn't meant to make fans upset. That's supposed to represent him as a child in the new DMC. Which makes perfect sense. Though a bunch of DMC fans were upset at first most sensical fans are over it. It's not permanent and just him... As a child.
2) Why would they add Frost in to the storyline when she probably isn't even that old yet. She's like 20 by the time Deception occurs, which considering it took many years between them she'd have to be far younger.
Here's why you are called fanboy:
1) I hate cyborg=My favorite character should never be one. Never mind his plot revolved around the Lin Kuei turning him into one or attempting it.
2) He gets turned into a soda can: Because he doesn't beat Scorpion unlike in the original MK2 storyline, and beats up Noob [Unlike MKD in the original] AND regains his soul in the same game./sarcasm.
3)There are many fans who accept it now. Just because you still can't handle it doesn't mean a thing. It's just like Pokemon.
Everyone at first: "Wow GF you ******** hate us fans don't you, man Pokemon is destroyed forever now!"
Days later: "GF BFF"
4)You're showing your fanboyism:
"Wah Sub-Zero can't possibly create a legacy as a cyborg (Lol at that YEAH RIGHT), and "Wah Smoke can't possibly have a legacy like Smoke's."
In other words, it's ok to happen to everyone else but Sub. That's fanboyism 101.
Also ****** like Smoke? Did you play the console games? Smoke was shut down by Sub-Zero. Except Smoke never regained his soul, never regained his memories, and became a cyber demon for Noob. Which obviously isn't happening.
Second, you don't know anything about the planned storyline for Cyber-Zero. Again if CSZ beats Kahn in the MKA timeline, I bet all you haters will be like "YEAH THAT SO COOL!" But because Sub-Zero isn't being glorified you feel like Sub-Zero [Classic? Lol, Elder Sub is the classic Sub-Zero, I think you mean Younger] is being ruined. How come nobody had a problem with Elder Sub becoming Noob Saibot a wraith akin similar to a spectre like Scorpion.
Because Sub-Zero isn't human? Lol. What did he do in the original storyline that can't be done now. Answer me that, or anyone calling you a fanboy, and maybe they wouldn't call you one. Problem: You can't. Sub-Zero as Cyber Sub can still do everything his original "Human" version did.
Demetrius
New member
Somebody pointed out my comments on Frost and Dante, but that post was deleted or I am seeing things, so let me say this in rebuttal:
First of all, on Frost; If you are drastically going to change a character to something unrecognizable, why not do it to a less mainstream character in the first place? The story for Cyber Cyromancer already exists, why is one Cyromancer uninterchangeable with another? Also, we don't have any Female Robo's for the Laydays, so that's another point to Cyber Frost over Cyber Sub. Even if she wasn't a UMK3 character, that arguement doesn't hold water (no pun intended) because Quan Chi wasn't either. You can say Quan Chi is important to the story, but why can't they write another character to having just as important of a story?
Second of all, on Dante; This is going to come off as more of a rant than it is supposed to, but this pisses me off to no end.
First of all, this can NOT be Dante as a younger person. Dante NEVER smoked Canonically, and also, Tameem, the Lead Designer of DmC, has come out and said "Old Dante isn't cool anymore", and when fans raged about it, he said "I Don't Care". So, if you don't care about the Fan Base of the game, and you don't think the old protagonist is cool, how can you make a character to be "cool" knowing he isn't going to be "cool" in the sequel?
Also, Capcom has said in an official interview, and let me restate that, IN AN OFFICIAL, FREAKIN, INTERVIEW that Devil May Cry didn't sell as well as they hoped, so they wanted to do two things with it, westernize it and increase sales. To Westernize it, they went to Tameem and his team, which was first of all a bad choice because of two reasons; Tameem is british, or rather, not west enough for Capcoms targeted market, and because Team Ninja's games are always glorified for their stories, but always get hammered on Gameplay, which is all Devil May Cry is.
To Increase Sales, Capcom did two things; they told Tameem that they wanted Team Ninja to do something that they wanted to design Dante so as to piss off fans; it would be free, easy publicity to help Increase Sales. So they want to use their fans, piss them off, manipulate them, and get them so angry they will ***** to all their friends about it, solely to increase awareness. The Second thing Capcom did was reject every design Team Ninja gave them that was supposed to be a decent Dante Design; with his trench coat, white hair, and pants, all because they wanted to radically change Dante's Iconic Look, in order to, you guessed it, piss off fans and increase sales.
That was actually stated in an interview with Inafune, the guy in charge.
So, TL;DR:
Capcom found a Scapegoat in Team Ninja so that they would hopefully piss of fans solely to increase sales, and they are ignoring all Fan's cries of outrage by simply stating "I Don't Care".
First of all, on Frost; If you are drastically going to change a character to something unrecognizable, why not do it to a less mainstream character in the first place? The story for Cyber Cyromancer already exists, why is one Cyromancer uninterchangeable with another? Also, we don't have any Female Robo's for the Laydays, so that's another point to Cyber Frost over Cyber Sub. Even if she wasn't a UMK3 character, that arguement doesn't hold water (no pun intended) because Quan Chi wasn't either. You can say Quan Chi is important to the story, but why can't they write another character to having just as important of a story?
Second of all, on Dante; This is going to come off as more of a rant than it is supposed to, but this pisses me off to no end.
First of all, this can NOT be Dante as a younger person. Dante NEVER smoked Canonically, and also, Tameem, the Lead Designer of DmC, has come out and said "Old Dante isn't cool anymore", and when fans raged about it, he said "I Don't Care". So, if you don't care about the Fan Base of the game, and you don't think the old protagonist is cool, how can you make a character to be "cool" knowing he isn't going to be "cool" in the sequel?
Also, Capcom has said in an official interview, and let me restate that, IN AN OFFICIAL, FREAKIN, INTERVIEW that Devil May Cry didn't sell as well as they hoped, so they wanted to do two things with it, westernize it and increase sales. To Westernize it, they went to Tameem and his team, which was first of all a bad choice because of two reasons; Tameem is british, or rather, not west enough for Capcoms targeted market, and because Team Ninja's games are always glorified for their stories, but always get hammered on Gameplay, which is all Devil May Cry is.
To Increase Sales, Capcom did two things; they told Tameem that they wanted Team Ninja to do something that they wanted to design Dante so as to piss off fans; it would be free, easy publicity to help Increase Sales. So they want to use their fans, piss them off, manipulate them, and get them so angry they will ***** to all their friends about it, solely to increase awareness. The Second thing Capcom did was reject every design Team Ninja gave them that was supposed to be a decent Dante Design; with his trench coat, white hair, and pants, all because they wanted to radically change Dante's Iconic Look, in order to, you guessed it, piss off fans and increase sales.
That was actually stated in an interview with Inafune, the guy in charge.
So, TL;DR:
Capcom found a Scapegoat in Team Ninja so that they would hopefully piss of fans solely to increase sales, and they are ignoring all Fan's cries of outrage by simply stating "I Don't Care".
Reptikahn
New member
You didn't read the points did you?
Frost= 20 at Deception. In UMK3 that'd make her at least younger than 15 years of age. Possibly 12. Do you think a 12 year old as a model for a cyborg would make sense? Sub was at least 32, Smoke was at least 32 in the original timeline.
Second, Quan Chi is immortal. So yeah, we could add Frost if you want MK to be considered more idiotic by the storyline than it already is.
Edit: What I mean is, we know Quan Chi is easily capable of having existed during UMK3 storyline because he existed prior to that MK:SZM He is responsible for Scorpions attack on Sub-Zero to begin with in MK2, and MK4, and he worked with Kahn which has been stated numerous times, or at least hinted or implied.
Frost may have not been 20 by Deception but she was still far too young to have been that old by UMK3. Which took only a few years at best after MK2. MK1 she was probably a toddler.
In the mangas which are considered canon in DMC3 [or prior to DMC3] Dante does smoke. Second, Dante is far from the same thing at all. I'll explain this in a moment.
Yet, he still looks younger. That still doesn't disprove a word I said.
Edit: Just so you know, I saw that interview where he said he didn't care. I was on the DMC board on GameFaqs and other similar sites. It's became a common belief that Dante is being potrayed as a younger, more rebellious teen/[pre teen?] version of himself, which has never been shown. Which could explain the smoking, his hair change and more. This was after that interview came out.
Of course if you only take things at face value you won't notice these rumours that have been going around for some time.
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Demetrius
New member
How the hell could I read all the points when you took the post down before I had a chance to read it all?
When Dante was first made, one of his major character points was he didn't smoke; capcom added that to make him edgier and to sell more copies.....
Reptikahn
New member
I removed that post and redid it because I didn't quote anyone except Snake, and I poorly formed my words, but I did repost the same message pretty much just better formed and with better points.
Also, even if it made him edgier, wait, can you explain what you mean by edgier. I don't know why but I've always seen Dante as edgy if we're meaning the same thing.
Also I re-edited some parts to that post on the Dante and Quan Chi/Frost thing.
Edit: Whoops, I can see where you mistook my words. Nevermind. I put wasn't meant to make fans angry, I was meaning indirectly. That rumour has pretty much made many fans stop hating that design. However, if that rumour isn't true [about it being a younger model back when he was a rebellious teen] then yeah, every DMC fan will hate it.
Unlike Sub-Zero, where his personality hasn't changed, he is still the same person... Forgot to add why it wasn't the same. Pardon me on that.
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SUBZ808
New member
Here's why you are called fanboy:
1) I hate cyborg=My favorite character should never be one. Never mind his plot revolved around the Lin Kuei turning him into one or attempting it.
2) He gets turned into a soda can: Because he doesn't beat Scorpion unlike in the original MK2 storyline, and beats up Noob [Unlike MKD in the original] AND regains his soul in the same game./sarcasm.
3)There are many fans who accept it now. Just because you still can't handle it doesn't mean a thing. It's just like Pokemon.
Everyone at first: "Wow GF you ******** hate us fans don't you, man Pokemon is destroyed forever now!"
Days later: "GF BFF"
4)You're showing your fanboyism:
"Wah Sub-Zero can't possibly create a legacy as a cyborg (Lol at that YEAH RIGHT), and "Wah Smoke can't possibly have a legacy like Smoke's."
In other words, it's ok to happen to everyone else but Sub. That's fanboyism 101.
Also ****** like Smoke? Did you play the console games? Smoke was shut down by Sub-Zero. Except Smoke never regained his soul, never regained his memories, and became a cyber demon for Noob. Which obviously isn't happening.
Second, you don't know anything about the planned storyline for Cyber-Zero. Again if CSZ beats Kahn in the MKA timeline, I bet all you haters will be like "YEAH THAT SO COOL!" But because Sub-Zero isn't being glorified you feel like Sub-Zero [Classic? Lol, Elder Sub is the classic Sub-Zero, I think you mean Younger] is being ruined. How come nobody had a problem with Elder Sub becoming Noob Saibot a wraith akin similar to a spectre like Scorpion.
Because Sub-Zero isn't human? Lol. What did he do in the original storyline that can't be done now. Answer me that, or anyone calling you a fanboy, and maybe they wouldn't call you one. Problem: You can't. Sub-Zero as Cyber Sub can still do everything his original "Human" version did.[/QUOTE]
I really don't care how much you back this all up, I have the right to my opinion, and I'll speak it, when something comes up I don't like, I'll say something. If that makes me a fanboy so be it, believe me I don't let Mortal Kombat or video games in general run my life by a long shot, This is the first game in well over 5 years I've been excited about,thats why i came to this forum in the first place, but stuff like this ruins the experience a little for me and I'm sure alot of other fans. First off I really never cared to see Sub win ANY of the tournaments or for him to be a mainboy in general, I liked that he was kinda a behind the scenes guy, I never liked to follow the"main" characters. As far as why not so much drama happened when elder sub became Noob very simple, it was that we still had a Sub Zero in Quai Liang, when everyone was flippin' out over unmasked Sub in MK3, I thought it was kinda cool, I was really hoping for unmasked Sub to be an alternate costume in the game and still hope it is possibly. Of course like I said in my post, we can still use human or MK II Sub which I will, I may even give soda can Sub a try, but I just really dislike the route his story went, and in the next MK, if hes still a Robot, I may stay away, like you said we don't know what direction the story takes, but if I dislike it, I'm not gonna waste my time simple as that.
1) I hate cyborg=My favorite character should never be one. Never mind his plot revolved around the Lin Kuei turning him into one or attempting it.
2) He gets turned into a soda can: Because he doesn't beat Scorpion unlike in the original MK2 storyline, and beats up Noob [Unlike MKD in the original] AND regains his soul in the same game./sarcasm.
3)There are many fans who accept it now. Just because you still can't handle it doesn't mean a thing. It's just like Pokemon.
Everyone at first: "Wow GF you ******** hate us fans don't you, man Pokemon is destroyed forever now!"
Days later: "GF BFF"
4)You're showing your fanboyism:
"Wah Sub-Zero can't possibly create a legacy as a cyborg (Lol at that YEAH RIGHT), and "Wah Smoke can't possibly have a legacy like Smoke's."
In other words, it's ok to happen to everyone else but Sub. That's fanboyism 101.
Also ****** like Smoke? Did you play the console games? Smoke was shut down by Sub-Zero. Except Smoke never regained his soul, never regained his memories, and became a cyber demon for Noob. Which obviously isn't happening.
Second, you don't know anything about the planned storyline for Cyber-Zero. Again if CSZ beats Kahn in the MKA timeline, I bet all you haters will be like "YEAH THAT SO COOL!" But because Sub-Zero isn't being glorified you feel like Sub-Zero [Classic? Lol, Elder Sub is the classic Sub-Zero, I think you mean Younger] is being ruined. How come nobody had a problem with Elder Sub becoming Noob Saibot a wraith akin similar to a spectre like Scorpion.
Because Sub-Zero isn't human? Lol. What did he do in the original storyline that can't be done now. Answer me that, or anyone calling you a fanboy, and maybe they wouldn't call you one. Problem: You can't. Sub-Zero as Cyber Sub can still do everything his original "Human" version did.[/QUOTE]
I really don't care how much you back this all up, I have the right to my opinion, and I'll speak it, when something comes up I don't like, I'll say something. If that makes me a fanboy so be it, believe me I don't let Mortal Kombat or video games in general run my life by a long shot, This is the first game in well over 5 years I've been excited about,thats why i came to this forum in the first place, but stuff like this ruins the experience a little for me and I'm sure alot of other fans. First off I really never cared to see Sub win ANY of the tournaments or for him to be a mainboy in general, I liked that he was kinda a behind the scenes guy, I never liked to follow the"main" characters. As far as why not so much drama happened when elder sub became Noob very simple, it was that we still had a Sub Zero in Quai Liang, when everyone was flippin' out over unmasked Sub in MK3, I thought it was kinda cool, I was really hoping for unmasked Sub to be an alternate costume in the game and still hope it is possibly. Of course like I said in my post, we can still use human or MK II Sub which I will, I may even give soda can Sub a try, but I just really dislike the route his story went, and in the next MK, if hes still a Robot, I may stay away, like you said we don't know what direction the story takes, but if I dislike it, I'm not gonna waste my time simple as that.
Demetrius
New member
No worries. I get a little overzealous when it comes to Dante, he is the reason I love Trench Coats.
I just really liked how he was a smart ass in the middle of fighting Demons and in dark, gritty settings. That to me was the appeal of Devil May Cry, and making Dante a serious character, like they seem to be doing in this new one (putting the Cig out on the demons head.... really? Really?!?) and it's pissing me off.....
But anyway.....
Reptikahn
New member
Fair enough, but you're still ignoring my simple point:
You say : Cyber Sub-Zero ruins Sub-Zero [Younger] yet they can achieve the exact same events if not in Sub's favor. Remember MK2 Scorpion event again? Sub-Zero is already probably going to beat Scorpion down again next MK game causing a rift not only to Scorpion but also to Sub's actual fame in the storyline. Sub may end up easily destroying DA/etc. with these enhancements. It's already been shown he is far more powerful in this timeline.
To dislike the changes is one thing, to deprive a change, try and back it up with incorrect statements isn't an opinion it's incorrect.
Like I said, you don't have to like it. However, don't try to say Sub can't achieve the same things he did as a human, because... He can. He proably will, and has already been shown too.
See the thing is everyone keeps saying that's fanboyish is "CSZ ruins Sub-Zero" Does it? Does it really? Compared to the original timeline where his only main achievements or in his plot line was beating Sektor and claiming the Lin Kuei and training Frost [who became a basket case] and the whole Medallion scenario. Why can't they be repeated or why can't new events happen to DEEPEN his storyline?
That's exactly my point.
Him regaining his soul and memories is pretty much as if they had turned him black, they don't effect his storyline in anyway. Even if his story does change it isn't dependent on becoming a cyborg.
Reptikahn
New member
Meh, if you think about it though, that's Dante being a smart ass by putting the cig out on a Demon's head during a fight or pre-imptive fight. Isn't it?
Though I don't like if it is his younger form how different he actually looks, but as long as he can be turned back in a timeline post that DMC I have no problem with it.
Demetrius
New member
I agree with this 100%, and it's not like we know if Subby is going to be staying as a Cyborg either. This could just be a phase he is going through.
SUBZ808
New member
Very true, thats why in my last post I stated, we still don't know where the story goes, there may be a cool twist, who knows? In a way it makes me even more excited for release day. I see exactly what your saying that Sub can still have an awesome story, which is true, its just harder for me to enjoy with him as a robot, it may seem petty but thats just me, we'll see when the game drops.
Demetrius
New member
You know.... About the Frost Angle.....
Even if Cyber Sub gets taken out (due to people wanting Sub to stay Human), they can still add Frost in as a Cyromancer that Sub Zero finds and trains (as is before, correct?) but gets Robotosized, and a glitch in her system makes her 2 frys short of a happy meal. Again, everyone is happy with Sub staying Human, fans of Cyber Sub get someone who plays exactly teh same, and Robo fans get a chick. It all works out.
Even if Cyber Sub gets taken out (due to people wanting Sub to stay Human), they can still add Frost in as a Cyromancer that Sub Zero finds and trains (as is before, correct?) but gets Robotosized, and a glitch in her system makes her 2 frys short of a happy meal. Again, everyone is happy with Sub staying Human, fans of Cyber Sub get someone who plays exactly teh same, and Robo fans get a chick. It all works out.
Reptikahn
New member
Meh, I think the thing is, NRS or Boon in general is becoming smarter at helping form the story.
Before, Sub-Zero and a few select characters never had any personal "downs." So to speak. Sure the whole Frost thing could be considered one, but it wasn't directly dependent on Sub-Zero.
This time, what if him changing back becomes a plot verse so to speak? That'd be far deeper and emotionally charging to the Sub-Zero fan than his original storyline had by any means.
Although on one fine note: I'm glad as long as he is a cyborg he won't age rapidly. Seriously his age from MK4-MKDA was insanely rapid. He went from looking like a 30 (+) year old man to 50-60 years old coot. It really disturbed me, and in MKD he was already balding and ancient.
Dammit_Rab
New member
Sorry man, but the whole point of a reboot is basically saying "yeah, this story has gone ****ing bonkers retarded.. let's start from scratch."
The old games will always be there for you. They're just retelling the story in a different way. Just like how Marvel has their "Ultimate" series. It's just an alternate timeline.
-Dammit_rab
SUBZ808
New member
Yup when I got MK DA I thought, how the hell did Sub Zero get 30+ years older, but Jax, Sonya and Johnny Cage haven't aged barely at all? but his alternate costume with the dragon medallion looked awesome, and once I got used to the gameplay I really liked the game, but yeah, the old man Sub Zero thing was strange.
Reptikahn
New member
You know, I think you may have explained that unsolved mystery... The Dragon Medallion. Maybe that's what causes it. Exchange of power for life.
subzerosmokerai
New member
I've seen your name before somewhere...
lol, nice seeing other guys here.As to the thread topic itself, I would agree that they are effectively removing Sub-Zero from the games. Mr. Last original hero of Earthrealm (seriously, look at Deception, besides the newly introduced guys he was the last original character from MK2 that was alive) has been flushed out to an extreme. Not a bad extreme but definitely enough to has a completely realized character.
But when it's time for a change, it's time for a change. Getting rid of Kitana, Liu Kang, Sub-Zero are all necessary evils to proceed. It sucks that they are as I said before "effectively removing Sub-Zero" but look at Cyrax, and look at Smoke. Smoke was on his way to redemption while Cyrax was redeemed. Sub-Zero is too iconic of a character to leave out for long. This just gives Smoke and others more of a chance to get story. Without Kitana, Jade and Sindel can get spotlight. Without Liu Kang, Raiden and Kung Lao can get spotlight. I love Sub-Zero to death (he's been my avatar so long and he's been part of my username since i've created it) but he needs this.