Hey... uh.. you all. What's your thoughts on THIS one?

[p.W]

Everyone's somehow missing the point. All GloriousDk is trying to say is basically. IF you're against Frost being in MKX where it's totally possible to make her play aboslutely NOTHING like subzero and yes she can have all ice moves and still play NOTHING like subzero every ice idea hasn't been thought up yet.

Then by default you have to be completely against Sektor and Cyrax being in at the same time. They are both Robots, part of the same clan, and they look similar.

But I don't want Sektor and Cyrax in at the same time. Why would you assume that I want either of them, let alone both? And their moves are still more different than Sub-Zero and Frost's will ever be. Cyrax has tech traps and gizmos, while Sektor uses legitimate weapons. And Sektor and Cyrax had non-robotic skins in MK9, mitigating the fact that "they're both robots."

 

[Critical-Limit]

But I don't want Sektor and Cyrax in at the same time. Why would you assume that I want either of them, let alone both? And their moves are still more different than Sub-Zero and Frost's will ever be. Cyrax has tech traps and gizmos, while Sektor uses legitimate weapons. And Sektor and Cyrax had non-robotic skins in MK9, mitigating the fact that "they're both robots."

you're still talking around the main point of the issue.

We can find an example of what you're criticizing and what you're ok with.

liu Kang has fire, Scorpion has fire. Both of them should not be in the game.

Them both having fire is the ONLY similarity they have.

Why can't you see that for Subzero / Frost? It's like people can't get past the fact that she wears similar clothes.

This is just off the top of my head.

Her Ice-ball could be shot at faster intervals but when it hits it doesn't freeze them like subzero, instead you could have her own special meter where everytime you land a ice move they get "colder" so effects stack

Once you've landed 2-3 ice moves and stacked these Her other freeze moves could have different effects. So she could be a weak character at the start of the round, But get stronger the longer it plays out.

Her other ice moves don't have to BE PUDDLE, OR SLIDE.

You can give her a laggy attack where ice spikes start at her come up and go back down, and domino their way to the end of the screen. If they block it pushes them back giving her space, but if they jump she eats a full combo.

you could give her a parry that doesn't hurt, but puts another Ice "Stack" on them to increase the properties of your ice moves. If you have 2-3 stacks on them. If you do another Ice SPike attack. Maybe now it does more chip, or pushes them out and back in with her have +1 frame advantage.

She could summon a blizzard which doesn't do any damage, but the strong winds can mess up spacing/footsies. Maybe if you put enough "ice stacks" on them. The blizzard could drain a very tiny bit of meter.

She could do a move where it touches you and you temporarily move slow.

Endless possibilites but everyone's stuck thinking... SHE MUST play similar to subzero.

Their NORMALS have NEVER been similar. She borrowed moves in a couple games, but in those games subzero wasn't even using them or they worked COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

 

[Marcelino Rodrigues]

Nightwolf, Rain and Raiden all had lightning moves and they were still very different from each other. Common elements is to be expected in a fighting game amongst characters...

 

[Critical-Limit]

Nightwolf, Rain and Raiden all had lightning moves and they were still very different from each other. Common elements is to be expected in a fighting game amongst characters...

(I agree)

Yeah but because they don't look alike it doesn't "count". Nightwolf and Rain's are extremely similar too.

He used Sektor using missiles and cyrax using bombs/nets as if that's a valid argument when Ice moves could be done the same way. I man Cybersubzero Shared only ice-ball with Subzero in MK9. Everything else was different.

It's like... people can't get over that it's double ice. Sektor/Cyrax is double explosion... Scorpion/Liu Kang fire/fire. Quanchi/Shang Tsung Sorcery/Sorcery.

But because they look differently enough and they use their powers in different ways it's ok. But not Frost and Subzero. That's not allowed. Frost and Subzero can't play differently enough.

 

[Commander]

Cassie also has Johnny's nut punch, as does Johnny I'm MKX.
Apparently 3 variations aren't enough to differentiate Johnny from Cassie to those that "Wahhh, Johnny is a waste of space."
/sarcasm

 

[p.W]

you're still talking around the main point of the issue.

We can find an example of what you're criticizing and what you're ok with.

I'm not convinced that I am talking around the issue, because you've yet to find an example where I am proven a hypocrite. I really don't mind if you keep trying, though, I'm open to the possibility of being proven wrong.

liu Kang has fire, Scorpion has fire. Both of them should not be in the game.

Liu Kang has one fire move that comes in a couple of slight variations, and he has a fire fatality.

Would Frost have one ice move that comes in a couple of slight variations, and an ice fatality? Even if you'd be OK with this setup, my first comment here was in response to [MENTION=17841]GloriousDK[/MENTION] who implied that he wouldn't like it if Frost's name didn't make sense for the character because her moves were no longer predominantly ice-based.

So, even if you would be fine with Sub-Zero and Frost being as different as Liu Kang and Scorpion, I don't think all Frost fans would agree with you.

 

[Kitty_55]

Yeah, there are plenty of different ways Frost could play totally different than Sub-Zero if she and him are to be in the same game.

She doesn't need to freeze, no reason to have her do that. She doesn't even have to have ice, could be snow, cold mist, really freezing cold water for heaven's sake.

And well... last time we saw her she was a MMA fighter, just throwing that out there.

 

[Critical-Limit]

Cassie also has Johnny's nut punch, as does Johnny I'm MKX.
Apparently 3 variations aren't enough to differentiate Johnny from Cassie to those that "Wahhh, Johnny is a waste of space."
/sarcasm

I agree, 1 nutpunch doesn't mean anything.

Let's use the EX slides of subzero/reptile earlier.

They both work fundamentally the same by themselves right?

Armor/Hits low/Approaches fast, and has a 2nd hit that knocks them on the other side of you.

If you can agree that this move is pretty much just the same move. People should whine.

But if you take into consideration the REST of both of these characters movesets.

You know Commander. Subzero can put out a clone. If someone shoots a projectile at you, you can EX slide, and push them INTO your ice clone right?

Reptile can't combo off his EX slide. Even if you slow forceball you'll only get one extra hit because the lag on the EX slides is pretty large. you won't recover fast enough to do more damage.

Subzero's clone however holds them there for a VERY long time. Subzero can get over there and do some nice damage.

The rest of the moveset has now made both of these slides that work EXACTLY the same alone, work COMPLETELY different on the characters. The threat levels on these moves are different.

Who's the say the nutpunch won't be the same way.

I'm not convinced that I am talking around the issue, because you've yet to find an example where I am proven a hypocrite. I really don't mind if you keep trying, though, I'm open to the possibility of being proven wrong.



Liu Kang has one fire move that comes in a couple of slight variations, and he has a fire fatality.

Would Frost have one ice move that comes in a couple of slight variations, and an ice fatality? Even if you'd be OK with this setup, my first comment here was in response to [MENTION=17841]GloriousDK[/MENTION] who implied that he wouldn't like it if Frost's name didn't make sense for the character because her moves were no longer predominantly ice-based.

So, even if you would be fine with Sub-Zero and Frost being as different as Liu Kang and Scorpion, I don't think all Frost fans would agree with you.

Liu Kang has Fire on his Bicycle Kicks, Fire on his dragon kick, Fire on his parry. I would also count low fire-ball and high fireball as 2 different firemoves, they have 2 different utilities.

Scorpion in MK9 only had Hellfire.. and that backflip that was part of his string. and the 2nd hit of his EX teleport punch. They had about the same amount of fire moves.

 

[p.W]

Liu Kang has Fire on his Bicycle Kicks, Fire on his dragon kick, Fire on his parry.

Scorpion in MK9 only had Hellfire.. and that backflip that was part of his string. and the 2nd hit of his EX teleport punch. They had about the same amount of fire moves.

Apparently the fire on his bicycle kick doesn't always show up? The earlier videos I watched didn't have it.

Anyway, OK, so we still have Liu Kang with one 100% fire move, and the rest are just martial arts moves that are cosmetically fire-enhanced (meaning it's not the fire that's doing the damage; he's had the same moves since MK1, they just look a tiny bit different now). I think my point still stands. Even if you'd be OK with Frost having only one 100% dedicated ice move, and the rest being just MMA moves that are cosmetically ice-enhanced, I'm not sure that you speak for all Frost fans.

But if it's just you and me talking, yeah, I might be OK with her moveset at that point. That would feel sufficiently different to me. The problem is I don't see anything else in the character worth salvaging. I'm not a huge fan of ninjas, I'm not a huge fan of MMA, I'm not a huge fan of female fighters, and her defining characteristics across both timelines have been "suicidally stupid," "suicidally arrogant," and "beaten by a sixteen year old." At this point, why bother? Just make a new character with a couple of ice moves.

 

[Commander]

Yeah, there are plenty of different ways Frost could play totally different than Sub-Zero if she and him are to be in the same game.

She doesn't need to freeze, no reason to have her do that. She doesn't even have to have ice, could be snow, cold mist, really freezing cold water for heaven's sake.

And well... last time we saw her she was a MMA fighter, just throwing that out there.

Exactly.
Frost could have stalagmite or stalactite Pop-up moves.
She doesn't necessarily have to have his ice ball.
MK9 Kenshi made me a big believer in NRS being able to greatly vary 2 characters that were very alike in the past.


[MENTION=8252]Critical-Limit[/MENTION]
I agree that Sub's Ice Slide has those properties, but she did seem very similar to him in the past.
Again, that doesn't mean that she can't be made unique in future games, but I 100% understand why the old Frost left a terrible taste in people's mouths.
I'm 1 of the ones who greatly disliked 3D era Frost, but I'm open-minded enough to accept a new revamp of her, IF they can make her feel unique enough.
The people on this site who have played as Cassie Cage in MKX say that she feels unique enough, that she is her own character, and that's what I would want for Frost.

 

[Critical-Limit]

Apparently the fire on his bicycle kick doesn't always show up? The earlier videos I watched didn't have it.

Anyway, OK, so we still have Liu Kang with one 100% fire move, and the rest are just martial arts moves that are cosmetically fire-enhanced (meaning it's not the fire that's doing the damage; he's had the same moves since MK1, they just look a tiny bit different now). I think my point still stands. Even if you'd be OK with Frost having only one 100% dedicated ice move, and the rest being just MMA moves that are cosmetically ice-enhanced, I'm not sure that you speak for all Frost fans.

But if it's just you and me talking, yeah, I might be OK with her moveset at that point. That would feel sufficiently different to me. The problem is I don't see anything else in the character worth salvaging. I'm not a huge fan of ninjas, I'm not a huge fan of MMA, I'm not a huge fan of female fighters, and her defining characteristics across both timelines have been "suicidally stupid," "suicidally arrogant," and "beaten by a sixteen year old." At this point, why bother? Just make a new character with a couple of ice moves.

The fire is doing the damage because the normal bicycle kick does a certain %, the EX has fire and it does more %. So it's doing damage. Just because it's combined with a physical hit means nothing.

That'd be like discrediting Subzero with ice moves, when his normals actually put you in suspended animation for a split second. And it's actually a cool thing cuz if you're pressuring and you ended your string early. you can D4>slide on reaction.



I still think you're being close minded on ice moves.

a lot of what you have problems with is just cosmetics.

lets say we had a spider like dude, that had a power to put sticky web on the floor and made you walk slow. Sounds like it's not a ice move right?

Except you could mechanically make a ICE move just like that. you could do something to the floor with snow/ice that make people walk slow.

But because its ICE based you don't want it. You can take any move Subzero has, and turn it into a NON ice move.

Puke = Ice puddle
Ice blast/freeze player = Maybe some kind of time gun that freezes time temporarily for the one hit.
ice slide = Acid slide
Ice clone = You could have noob put out his clone and have him stand there and hold you if you touch him.

all of this would be mechanically the same as subzero's moves but their NOT ice based.

So I could come up with a bunch of moves you'd approve of for Frost. but switch it to Ice idea and I get the feeling you'd still see it as Too many ice moves I don't like it.

No?

[MENTION=8252]Critical-Limit[/MENTION]
I agree that Sub's Ice Slide has those properties, but she did seem very similar to him in the past.
Again, that doesn't mean that she can't be made unique in future games, but I 100% understand why the old Frost left a terrible taste in people's mouths.
I'm 1 of the ones who greatly disliked 3D era Frost, but I'm open-minded enough to accept a new revamp of her, IF they can make her feel unique enough.
The people on this site who have played as Cassie Cage in MKX say that she feels unique enough, that she is her own character, and that's what I would want for Frost.

Fair enough bud,

I'm not even a frost fan myself. I just don't understand the close minded/hate. Obviously here you're being extremely open minded. Kudos~

 

[p.W]

The fire is doing the damage because the normal bicycle kick does a certain %, the EX has fire and it does more %. So it's doing damage. Just because it's combined with a physical hit means nothing.

I suspected it might be an EX thing, but I wasn't sure. It's been eons since I've played the game.

I still think you're being close minded on ice moves.

a lot of what you have problems with is just cosmetics.

lets say we had a spider like dude, that had a power to put sticky web on the floor and made you walk slow. Sounds like it's not a ice move right?

Except you could mechanically make a ICE move just like that. you could do something to the floor with snow/ice that make people walk slow.

But because its ICE based you don't want it. You can take any move Subzero has, and turn it into a NON ice move.

Puke = Ice puddle
Ice blast/freeze player = Maybe some kind of time gun that freezes time temporarily for the one hit.
ice slide = Acid slide
Ice clone = You could have noob put out his clone and have him stand there and hold you if you touch him.

all of this would be mechanically the same as subzero's moves but their NOT ice based.

So I could come up with a bunch of moves you'd approve of for Frost. but switch it to Ice idea and I get the feeling you'd still see it as Too many ice moves I don't like it.

No?

You nailed it, actually. Gameplay isn't the most important thing for me about characters. So taking Frost's ice slows and making them "spider-web" themed or something would make all the difference in the world for me, even if the gameplay was identical. Any character can be given fun gameplay, right? Like, literally any character can be made fun with some funky moves, or gimmicks, or what have you. Frost is absolutely no exception. So if fun gameplay is just the default expectation, then I move up to the other things - does the character add to the world of MK? Would she make an interesting character in a film adaptation? Do they have cool rivalries? Are they likely to make a "top 10 new video game characters of 2015" list and build hype around the game?

Fair enough bud,

I'm not even a frost fan myself. I just don't understand the close minded/hate. Obviously here you're being extremely open minded. Kudos~

You too, buddy.

People and knee jerk reactions go together like ketchup and mustard. Look at Reiko, all it took was two comic appearances to make him the most popular hipster pick for MKX. Look even at Hsu Hao, he showed up in the comic doing something (hunting Kenshi), died, and people were like "Whoa that's the coolest Hsu Hao has ever been, I wouldn't even mind seeing him in the game now!" Anything's possible.

 

[Commander]

The 6 post-MK3 characters that caught my attention the most were Fujin, Quan Chi, Reiko, Kenshi, Havik and maaaaaaaaybe masked Hotaru.

 

[Temptress]

"Frost could have this, they could give her this, she could be completely different."

Blah blah blah, that's all I'm hearing over & over again. They could also revamp Mokap into some brilliantly unique character with innovative special moves and an amazing backstory. Does that mean they should? No.

 

[Commander]

Well, they did it with Kenshi in MK9 and made him different enough from Ermac, so why not also with Frost?

 

[Temptress]

Well, they did it with Kenshi in MK9 and made him different enough from Ermac, so why not also with Frost?

Because Kenshi is somewhat unique. Frost is pretty much identical (aesthetically) to Sub-Zero, but I'm not going to sit here and repeat myself.

 

[Commander]

I wasn't talking about aesthetics, though.
Takeda has a costume that is very similar to human Hanzo in MKX, but the 2 seem to play nothing alike.
I'm mainly talking of gameplay.
Back in the day, Kenshi seemed very similar to Ermac in gameplay, and MK9 changed all of that.
Likewise, Frost was very similar to Sub-Zero in the past, and she can be made different from him, gameplay-wise, in the future.

 

[Critical-Limit]

Because Kenshi is somewhat unique. Frost is pretty much identical (aesthetically) to Sub-Zero, but I'm not going to sit here and repeat myself.

Mokap is a bad example he exists pretty much solely as a tribute to their employee.

If your against aesthetically similar characters. Cassie and Sonya should not be at the same time, Johnny and liu kang just use mostly martial arts with a little green or fire, ermac and kenshi, sektor cyrax.

I'm not even saying she deserves a spot. But I'm not close minded to the idea she could be a fun unique character.

Same for any redo's in post mk3 characters.

 

[Taj Gill]

Give Frost ice moves that do damage only, and I could care less if she's in. Freezing should be reserved for Sub-Zero only.

 

[Critical-Limit]

Give Frost ice moves that do damage only, and I could care less if she's in. Freezing should be reserved for Sub-Zero only.

I don't care if she can freeze the same way subzero does. I think were at a understanding that her ice powers if she were in need to be different in some way. Not sure why you would limit it to ONLY damage. Why can't put a snowball on you and explode it at will like a remote bomb(blockable), and then it causes a shivering animation. Not frozen solid.

Is that too close to freezing?

Cuz then scorpion mechanically has a freezing move if you wanna look at his spear.