Mortal Kombat: 3D vs 2D

[Angel]

Other than ULTIMATE Mortal Kombat 3, Mortal Kombat GOLD, Mortal Kombat Deception UNCHAINED and Mortal Kombat TOURNAMENT EDITION, yes.

Okay, so some of those may not be the exactly the same as the SuperTurbos, but MK is definitely not innocent of trying those sorts of titles out.

Well ultimate was to shut the Scorpion fans up.

And the other games were to signal they were different releases of the same game with an extra (usually) for the extra wait to play the game on their system.

So its not as bad as SF. ;-)

 

[Patrick McCarron]

Since this thread got brought back up I'd like to try get a clarification going here. People love to throw around 2D vs 3D a lot without really detailing what they want to be in 2D or 3D. There are many aspects to a game that can be 2D or 3D, not just "the game."

MK9 will be a "3D rendering engine" just like every MK since MK4. The characters will be composed of 3D modeled characters, there will be no 2D sprites used in games prior to MK4. It's overly costly, takes a lot more time and doesn't scale very well to do digital image capture of the characters. If you want classic sprites like the 90s, well then I'd stick to those games as it's not going back that way EVER. The game will be in the 3D, and will be running on Unreal Engine 3 just as MKvsDC did.

Now with that said, Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe was the closest post-MK4 game to move back towards a "2D gameplay engine" it moved even more control away from the side-step ability and relegated that to having to hold a button to change your 3D position by side-stepping. In my experience the side-stepping adds too much complexity to the gameplay of a fast paced fighting game. It would be in the team's best interest to move to a strict 2D gameplay similar to the prior games, but while maintaining a very excellent 3D rendering engine.

More and more games are moving back to this model, look at Street Fighter IV and the New Super Mario Bros series. Both are very flexible 3D engines with accessible 2D gameplay. It makes it easy to play and pick up, without getting confused on how you move around.

After the success of SFIV I'd be surprised to see MK9 keep a free moving model, I barely used any of the MKvsDC side step functions while playing and enjoyed it just fine that way.

As far as the "stupid subtitle" stuff goes, "Ultimate MK3" was branded that to productize an arcade ROM update and make it easier to charge arcade operators for. Easier to say "hey pay for this enhanced product" instead of "hey charge for this 3.0 software update." Back in the arcade days, this was required in order to recoop costs to developing the updates is to make upgrades marketable, sure you paid quarters to your arcade machine but those quarters didn't goto Midway.

 

[Kurtis Stryker]

I personally loved the sidestepping aspect of the 3D MK games. Complex? Yes, but it also allowed for many different techniques and strategies when fighting. It wasn't just the simple combo, combo, special move routine that some can/will spam to death; you could dodge some of the special moves and/or strikes, and exploit the opening.

But, if MK9 plays like MKvsDCU, I won't complain. The game play was pretty enjoyable.

 

[DCR]

To me, the problem with the 3D movement in MK vs. DC is the way it seemingly breaks the flow of the combat, which is entirely 2D-focused. Most of my time spent playing the game I would completely forget the Z axis even existed until the AI would dodge one of my projectiles by a means other than ducking.

Sidestepping an attack in a game where the combat is 3D is entirely different as you expect to be able to do it. MK4, Virtua Fighter 3 and MK vs. DC, however, all implement this in such a way that gives someone a tremendous advantage in a match if they can use it effectively, yet practically discourages you from using it. For this reason, I throw my support behind Pat's idea. MK vs. DC was a bit of a tease to remind us of what we'd been missing from the previous games, so I'd like to see that 2D fighting engine fully fledged out.

 

[Angel]

I personally loved the sidestepping aspect of the 3D MK games. Complex? Yes, but it also allowed for many different techniques and strategies when fighting. It wasn't just the simple combo, combo, special move routine that some can/will spam to death; you could dodge some of the special moves and/or strikes, and exploit the opening.

But, if MK9 plays like MKvsDCU, I won't complain. The game play was pretty enjoyable.

Ah I envy those of you who own the PS3 or X-box... Well I envy one group of those but not the other anyway. :-/

*Kicks the Wii in my bro's room quietly as to not wake him*

i wouldn't mind another 2D game, but I'd prefer to be able to knock a foe to the side with a swipe and see the game adjust itself rather then a all out "3D model in a 2D world". It kind defeats a point in using 3D at all. Its like teasing you with the 3D look but not at all with anything else. I've got games that do this, thats part of the reason why I'm not a fan of going back to 2D. Plus while I love retro gaming, as of late I've grown sick of the backwards trend. Just when gaming seems to be comfortably heading forward, why does there need to be a backstep to do something else.

Theres a difference between a game produced in the 90s that was 2D and a 00s 3D game, graphics for one and a different era for 2. We had to deal with a significantly less amount of thing in gaming that the kids of today deal with. I mean its not like theres wows anymore when a 2 button joystick is produced is there...

Ah nuts... Why did I say "joystick"... I always loved using joysticks. T_T

 

[Patrick McCarron]

i wouldn't mind another 2D game, but I'd prefer to be able to knock a foe to the side with a swipe and see the game adjust itself rather then a all out "3D model in a 2D world". It kind defeats a point in using 3D at all. Its like teasing you with the 3D look but not at all with anything else.

Not a 2D world, the would can be fully 3D just the game's axis at which you play is always 2D. I as the user don't have to dictate where to move the view, the player just controls moving the character towards or away from his opponent. You can do all this fancy 3D stuff, just not be stuck having ot move your character around in it.

Deathcore put it perfectly: the 3D element in fighting games "breaks the flow of the combat." I'd allow and take a quick dodge move, but not much else personally.

 

[badrock]

MK4. It's overly costly, takes a lot more time and doesn't scale very well to do digital image capture of the characters. If you want classic sprites like the 90s, well then I'd stick to those games as it's not going back that way EVER.

While I'm sure MK9 will not be in 2D graphics, I don't feel it is completely unreasonable to want a game that way today. Last year there were a few big 2D games release on PS3/360 with BlazBlue and KOF12 and they look beautiful in HD. Guilty Gear is also a current franchise that is still 2D.

You are correct in it is more expensive / slower so there is absolutely no incentive for MK9 to do this. In my opinion MK9 would give itself a possibility of a franchise rebirth if they brought back 2D; a lot of the MK fans that gave up after Deception would look at it as a reason to pick up a new MK and try it out.

 

[DCR]

That's an entirely different style of 2D, though. Hand-drawn 2D art will likely always have a place in Capcom and SNK fighters, but MK's style of digitized character graphics is completely antiquated now. Don't forget the problems with image scaling that Pat mentioned, the inherent hassles of using live actors and the fact that HD digitized graphics would just look ridiculous today. It's not unreasonable to want 2D hand-drawn graphics from a game that's always used them, but asking for digitized graphics in an industry that abandoned them well over a decade ago is a bit silly.

 

[Angel]

That's an entirely different style of 2D, though. Hand-drawn 2D art will likely always have a place in Capcom and SNK fighters, but MK's style of digitized character graphics is completely antiquated now. Don't forget the problems with image scaling that Pat mentioned, the inherent hassles of using live actors and the fact that HD digitized graphics would just look ridiculous today. It's not unreasonable to want 2D hand-drawn graphics from a game that's always used them, but asking for digitized graphics in an industry that abandoned them well over a decade ago is a bit silly.

I would agree. Plus you refer to a JAPANESE game that can get away with MANGA style any of the week because it is JAPANESE. Ed Boon comment in an interview (forget when) that 3D models take up less memory then a frame. Reason because all you need are models and the movements. Digital images though, you'd need 60-90 frames per minute of photos. Plus in todays modern setting, the backgrounds and lighting make them look silly when drawings get away with it cause their not meant to look realistic in the first place and 3D models are effected by lighting anyway. :-/

 

[Patrick McCarron]

Don't forget the problems with image scaling that Pat mentioned, the inherent hassles of using live actors and the fact that HD digitized graphics would just look ridiculous today. It's not unreasonable to want 2D hand-drawn graphics from a game that's always used them, but asking for digitized graphics in an industry that abandoned them well over a decade ago is a bit silly.

Yeah actors who then leave and take their image to another game just to piss over the company that made them money to begin with? You can get a new motion capture actor, but not a new face to a character who is demanding more money. It's much easier to create the characters themselves, and they still incorporate digitizing in the use of texture mapping.

Not to mention the problem of making sure the actor and the costume look exactly the same two months later when they need to call them back to do more captures for another new move idea.

Ed Boon comment in an interview (forget when) that 3D models take up less memory then a frame. Reason because all you need are models and the movements. Digital images though, you'd need 60-90 frames per minute of photos. Plus in todays modern setting, the backgrounds and lighting make them look silly when drawings get away with it cause their not meant to look realistic in the first place and 3D models are effected by lighting anyway. :-/

Yeah they'd need enough frames to animate thru for 60 frames a SECOND, not a minute. That's 3600 a minute. But yeah it's a lot.

You wont see 2D graphics, Nintendo doesn't even do it with Mario games which were 2D for a long time.

 

[Razerhd]

Hmm, personally, I wouldn't mind seeing an MK game that does what Street Fighter 4 did. They use their original scheme from the other street sighters and sorta update it alittle. UMK3 seemed to be the higher arc of the MK 2-D era and to see that sorta be implimented into like what SFIV did would be pretty coll.

 

[Angel]

Yeah actors who then leave and take their image to another game just to piss over the company that made them money to begin with? You can get a new motion capture actor, but not a new face to a character who is demanding more money. It's much easier to create the characters themselves, and they still incorporate digitizing in the use of texture mapping.

Not to mention the problem of making sure the actor and the costume look exactly the same two months later when they need to call them back to do more captures for another new move idea.



Yeah they'd need enough frames to animate thru for 60 frames a SECOND, not a minute. That's 3600 a minute. But yeah it's a lot.

You wont see 2D graphics, Nintendo doesn't even do it with Mario games which were 2D for a long time.

Oh thats where the frame rates at these days huh? With drawings you can get away with animating just a foot separate from the rest of the body also. But it would look too out with a photo. The old sprite days you could get away with so much cheaply and make it oh so not cheap looking. These days those same old techniques just don't amount to so much. :-/

 

[Kurtis Stryker]

In my opinion MK9 would give itself a possibility of a franchise rebirth if they brought back 2D; a lot of the MK fans that gave up after Deception would look at it as a reason to pick up a new MK and try it out.

Bullocks. ALL MK fans are going to pick up MK9, regardless of what it looks like. Even most who "gave up after Deception" still checked out Armageddon and vs. DCU, because they're still new MK games. Some are just too feeble with the whole 2D thing, because everyone is going to check out MK9. Some of the older fans are likely going to be butt hurt, but its still going to sell, the butt hurt fans are still going to play it and it may even bring in some new fans.

 

[Angel]

Bullocks. ALL MK fans are going to pick up MK9, regardless of what it looks like. Even most who "gave up after Deception" still checked out Armageddon and vs. DCU, because they're still new MK games. Some are just too feeble with the whole 2D thing, because everyone is going to check out MK9. Some of the older fans are likely going to be butt hurt, but its still going to sell, the butt hurt fans are still going to play it and it may even bring in some new fans.

You said it in the most colourful way, lol.

But you only have to look at sales of the last 4 games, MK sold very well despite the series flaws. You also have to remember this is 2010 where the arcades are DEAD, MK sold best in the arcades. Thats the factor a lot of the 2D MK fans forget, that times HAVE changed and for the better or worst your not dealing with the same markets anymore. Even the cheap blood and gore won't cut it anymore cause guess what, theres worst out there now!

 

[Patrick McCarron]

Oh thats where the frame rates at these days huh? With drawings you can get away with animating just a foot separate from the rest of the body also. But it would look too out with a photo. The old sprite days you could get away with so much cheaply and make it oh so not cheap looking. These days those same old techniques just don't amount to so much. :-/

All the MK games ran at around 30fps on the old arcade system, and now the mark for most games are 60fps to get fluid motion. Sure they'll reuse frames, but it's just to make the game look and animate smooth.

 

[skillz]

The question is, did MK improve when it turned 3D? I think it's pretty fair to say..NO. Will it improve eventually if they keep it 3D? Well ... I don't believe so. Yes, I'm an old school MK fan..but .. yes..I'm openminded for changes. The fact that MK vs. DC went a little bit back to 2D is a sign that the team realized that it didn't work, but were too afraid to make it fully 2D or like SF4, which I prefere. The first MK's were an succes, not only because of the gore, story, etc. But also because of the gameplay. If you make it 3D, make sure that the basics of the game can move along with this change. But it can't, unless you'll make it another Tekken, DOA, etc.

Gamers (that are not MK fans) still play UMK or MK II. Some of them didn't even know that there was a Deception or Armagaedon. It's nice that the games sales were good, but if I'm a creator ..I rather make a game that sells less and is remembered & acknowledged as a great game. How many gamers will play MKDA or Deception after 15-20 years like MKII or UMK3? Exactly.

The team need to make a quality game and I think going back to 2D is the first step. Everything else (sales) will follow.

EDIT: it's the second step, getting Tobias back is the first.

 

[Kurtis Stryker]

If Deadly Alliance and Deception are made available for download 5-10 years from now, they'll likely receive play as well. You forget that UMK3 and MKII are still played, because they're still being re-released.

If you want to talk about awful 3D game play, you nailed it with DOA.

 

[allenella]

I just joined TRMK forum ( I don't remember if I had joined before and not), even though I have been following everything about MK from TRMK for close to 15 years. A BIG THANK YOU for helping me out with MK.

I was reading through this thread I just to put my thoughts into writing here. So please bear with me.

Whenever I have read/heard any update it has always been about how awesome/gruesome/bloody the character looked and pulled off lame ass fatalities in 3D. Even the last quote of Ed on TRMK talked about the fatalities. Nothing about the gameplay. Yes fatality(more the merrier) is required but I need a satisfying game before that pulling a awesome/lousy fatality. And fatalities has been sucking turd since MKA till MK VS DC


What I have seen so far is that when it comes to side stepping the MK team makes it complicated; meaning I have to move thumb from the d-pad to the analog to side step(or was it the other way around?) and I don't why it so damn complicated. And it was also different in MK4, MK5/6/7. It doesn't have to be complicated . I have played various 3D fighting games; the simpler the controls the better the game gets. And I know of at least one game that's gotten side stepping right. And it can be done with both on the analog & d-pad. Splitting control functions between the d pad and analog is just bad.


MK team must make the projectile animation(from beginning to the end) flashier and the movement of the projectile across the screen much much much faster. It will make it more difficult to avoid and really puts the emphasis on side stepping. I witnessed the improvement in projectile animation with another game that I keep playing, it's like fast enough to get hit by projectile, but easy enough to sidestep at the same time. And make the arena much much smaller than before and that way projectile(especially for the freeze/ fireball) has a chance of working. In 2D plane, the arena though linear, was small therefore getting hit by a projectile some where in a round was certain. If they can balance this thing, no need to go down the path SF IV and its iterations are taking.

I am not asking to copy everything from a different game, but take something that works and implement it. For example: Street fighter had projectiles in 2D much before MK came out, but it was added and got twisted for enjoyment(get over here). So why not take the side stepping layout from another 3D fighting game(nudging towards a Namco game), and use it.

BUT please don't change the button scheme. I like the HP, LP, HK, LK button config of MK because it works. Its better than the damned SF button scheme. And get the character animation smooth and realistic for each button, dang, I know I'll have a new MK to fall back on.

Thanks.

 

[Angel]

The question is, did MK improve when it turned 3D? I think it's pretty fair to say..NO. Will it improve eventually if they keep it 3D? Well ... I don't believe so. Yes, I'm an old school MK fan..but .. yes..I'm openminded for changes. The fact that MK vs. DC went a little bit back to 2D is a sign that the team realized that it didn't work, but were too afraid to make it fully 2D or like SF4, which I prefere. The first MK's were an succes, not only because of the gore, story, etc. But also because of the gameplay. If you make it 3D, make sure that the basics of the game can move along with this change. But it can't, unless you'll make it another Tekken, DOA, etc.

Gamers (that are not MK fans) still play UMK or MK II. Some of them didn't even know that there was a Deception or Armagaedon. It's nice that the games sales were good, but if I'm a creator ..I rather make a game that sells less and is remembered & acknowledged as a great game. How many gamers will play MKDA or Deception after 15-20 years like MKII or UMK3? Exactly.

The team need to make a quality game and I think going back to 2D is the first step. Everything else (sales) will follow.

EDIT: it's the second step, getting Tobias back is the first.

On the contray, I think different.

MK DID improve when it went 3D, 3D opened up doors that were NEVER there before for one reason or another, perspectives, experimentation... ^_-

There seems to be this complete denial of what progress WAS made since going 3D be it little or large amounts. Those who want a 2D are just saying "3D sucked" before admitting that any form of progress WAS MADE in doing so. If they go back, great, but they've still learn something FROM going 3D and it would STILL show up. So knock it off guys, you need to reopen you're eyes, not everything in 3D was complete waste of time or effort. Look at the other things.

No, Tobias should be allowed to led his own life, fans should accept that he wanted to do his own path. Its fairly selfish to want a guy back when he wanted to take a different role. He came for the V.s DCU comic art, but lets leave it at that. If he comes back, so be it, we should not as fans be trying to force him into something he doesn't want to do anymore. Thats not good either because if he is forced back he might not have the heart for it, but also he has been out of the MK team loop for a while. You just don't come back 8 or so years (I forget when he left again) and expect everything to be the same as before. It would take him 2 or 3 games to get into the swing, and even if we said on his first game back, well done, thats not fair because he hadn't be given the chance to start bouncing with the flow again, it would be to only the fans an illusion.

 

[badrock]

The question is, did MK improve when it turned 3D? I think it's pretty fair to say..NO. Will it improve eventually if they keep it 3D? Well ... I don't believe so. Yes, I'm an old school MK fan..but .. yes..I'm openminded for changes

I agree with this. The best MK game ever was UMK3 in my mind, but I loved the hell out of MK - MK4. MK4 worked in 3D because it kept the 2D gameplay, they added sidestep but it was not used often. I don't think MK will ever have a truly great 3D game, mainly because they will always be compared to the 2D versions. They had a franchise that got its popularity on the 2D versions so they should stick to that, even if it means pulling a SF4 and having 3D for the graphics alone.

I am very open minded to 3D game play, I just don't think it works for MK. I play a great deal of Tekken, VF, Soul Calibur, etc.

Bullocks. ALL MK fans are going to pick up MK9, regardless of what it looks like. Even most who "gave up after Deception" still checked out Armageddon and vs. DCU, because they're still new MK games.

I would have to disagree with you on that one. I have a lot of friends who were all die hard MK fans that completely gave up on MK after Deception/Armageddon. They are all still gamers, but whenever they see a new MK come out they just think "same old shit". MK9 will really have to sell itself as something different to get those gamers back into it.