how important is balance in fighting games?

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chessmaster

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it seems like everybody who plays street fighter doesn't care for balancing. but the mortal kombat crowd seems to want mk9 to be balanced. some people don't understand the difference between balance and everyone playing the exact same way. a game CAN be balanced without everyone playing the exact same. so what do you guys think about the importance of having a balanced game?
 
I don't play SSF4, but are you sure they don't care about balance? I would think they do...

Anyway, I don't see much point in playing an unbalanced fighting game. The point of a fighting game is to see who can come out on top based on skill rather than character imbalances. What is the point of making several fighters if there happens to be one that is extremely overpowered and can destroy every other player with ease? For example, if Kintaro became a playable online character with no changes from single player, would that be a fun game to play if everyone simply chose him for a free win?

Maybe back in the day it was okay to release an unbalanced fighting game because they were played simply for fun and fun only (also there were no online options), but from what I can tell, there is a huge competitive community that attend tournaments and expect the games to be as balanced as possible. There is money on the line at these tournaments, it only makes sense for them to be well balanced.
 
Warning: long post ahead!

Ideally, you want to achieve a balance between overall character balance (everyone on the roster is viable) and overall character variation (noone on the roster plays the same). This of course is going to lead to some slightly un-balanced characters but imo if at least 60% of the cast is viable, and there aren't any clones, that's good enough for me.

Unfortunately for developers, they don't always have the time or resources to strive for that level, and some do fall short as a result (some do actually meet it however).

It's important to keep in mind establishing a quote unquote overpowered or even under powered character takes a lot of time and play to actually figure out. Granted, the developers usually know what makes a good move good (and can therefore work out how good a particular character is), it can be difficult to see the overall character balance without having sunk thousands of hours of competitive level play into it, especially because of how the overall meta-game evolves through (hopefully) many years of play.

But, this is sort of circular logic, because if the game isn't balanced well enough for players to establish competitive tactics with their respective characters, which other players adapt to in order to get better/improve, you won't be able to tell who really is over or under powered. That's why establishing true character balance takes a while.

Developers might design the characters, but meta-games and true character viability is established by the players. If you want an example, look towards MVC2; in it's early years Ice man was considered top tier - like literally one of the best in the game. But, by the 10th year of competitive play, he was nowhere to be seen - in any team because the players all adapted to an extent where he was no longer viable.

Summary: you want a semblance of balance - enough for people to play the game. The exact percentage or amount is anyone's guess as it all depends on the community; some games take off, some don't - irrespective of how well balanced they are.
 
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viOleNcE said:
I don't play SSF4, but are you sure they don't care about balance? I would think they do...

Anyway, I don't see much point in playing an unbalanced fighting game. The point of a fighting game is to see who can come out on top based on skill rather than character imbalances. What is the point of making several fighters if there happens to be one that is extremely overpowered and can destroy every other player with ease? For example, if Kintaro became a playable online character with no changes from single player, would that be a fun game to play if everyone simply chose him for a free win?

Maybe back in the day it was okay to release an unbalanced fighting game because they were played simply for fun and fun only (also there were no online options), but from what I can tell, there is a huge competitive community that attend tournaments and expect the games to be as balanced as possible. There is money on the line at these tournaments, it only makes sense for them to be well balanced.
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street fighter is my main argument. if ssf4 was balanced, you would see more variety than just ryu and akuma vs everybody else. and now with ae it's going to be the 4 new characters vs everybody else.
 
chessmaster said:
street fighter is my main argument. if ssf4 was balanced, you would see more variety than just ryu and akuma vs everybody else. and now with ae it's going to be the 4 new characters vs everybody else.
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Isn't that like saying if MK were balanced you'd see more than Scorpion and Smoke vs everyone else? There are always going to be characters that are popular choices, but I wouldn't say they have a great advantage over other characters.
 
viOleNcE said:
Isn't that like saying if MK were balanced you'd see more than Scorpion and Smoke vs everyone else? There are always going to be characters that are popular choices, but I wouldn't say they have a great advantage over other characters.
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everyone picks scorpion and smoke because all they do is spam special moves. and you don't see scorpion in tournament play nearly as much as you see ryu. and when they patch smoke people won't be so quick to pick him either.
 
chessmaster said:
everyone picks scorpion and smoke because all they do is spam special moves. and you don't see scorpion in tournament play nearly as much as you see ryu. and when they patch smoke people won't be so quick to pick him either.
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meh, its a cycle.

x is opverpowered/unbalanced/unfair/annoyg (none of these have to be the same reason obviously)

they adjust x

now y..which nobody had payed attention to until now is overpowered/unbalanced/unfair/annoying

repeat process to infiniti

this process WILL REPEAT until one of two things occur

1-the highly unlikely outcome, all characters become the same

2-the game dies/becomes replaced by a new game where this cycle continues.
 
Is Ryu considered unbalanced though? Sure he appears to be a popular choice in tournaments, but I've still seen plenty of other players do well with other characters.

I think it was an Evo video I was watching on YouTube where a Dhalsim player defeated a Ryu player in the finals.
 
WTF are you talking about?? SF players care about balance, SF is worlds more balanced then MK will ever be. I prefer to play MK but there is no denying which game is better balanced.
 
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viOleNcE said:
Is Ryu considered unbalanced though? Sure he appears to be a popular choice in tournaments, but I've still seen plenty of other players do well with other characters.

I think it was an Evo video I was watching on YouTube where a Dhalsim player defeated a Ryu player in the finals.
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ryu is unbalanced. he has the easiest special moves and nobody else in the game has a fireball as effective as ryu. and he has anti-air which not everybody has. he excels in almost all categories.
 
Immortal Reaver said:
WTF are you talking about?? SF players care about balance, SF is worlds more balanced then MK will ever be.
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there are always 5 or 6 people in every sf game that are a lot better than everybody else. but nobody ever says anything, which is why i say sf players don't care. the mk community is way more involved in the forums and letting it be known which characters they think need buffs or nerfs. nobody ever says anything about vega or dan in ssf4.
 
Capcom games are horribly imbalanced. I like games where you see a majority of the roster being used regularly.
 
Raddus said:
Capcom games are horribly imbalanced. I like games where you see a majority of the roster being used regularly.
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this is my major concern. ryu and akuma are in 50% of the matches. this is not what i want in mortal kombat and i think the smoke patch will stop so many people from picking him. more people will pick the characters getting buffed. that to me is a balanced game, where all or most of the characters can be used effectively and every character has advantages and disadvantages.
 
Bros, I slay the Ryus and Akumas of the world all the time with Cammy, Fei Long and Yang. I don't know how you can suggest that Ryu and Akuma renders SSFIV broken. I guarantee half of you don't even play SSFIV on a regular basis.

Besides, balance is only effective in a game, if you can play the damn thing online. Who cares about reducing so-and-so's damage effect from a move, if you can't benefit from said-balance in an online setting?
 
Kurtis Stryker said:
Bros, I slay the Ryus and Akumas of the world all the time with Cammy, Fei Long and Yang. I don't know how you can suggest that Ryu and Akuma renders SSFIV broken. I guarantee half of you don't even play SSFIV on a regular basis.

Besides, balance is only effective in a game, if you can play the damn thing online. Who cares about reducing so-and-so's damage effect from a move, if you can't benefit from said-balance in an online setting?
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i play street fighter on a regular basis and most of the time i wind up facing ryu or akuma. i don't have ae yet but from the replay channel yun and yang will the new ryu and akuma. and i have faith the online for mk won't remain like this.
 
Yun and Yang are completely different fighters from Ryu and Akuma. Yun and Yang are very tricky, and certainly have a different technique than the other fighters in the game. But, every fighter in SF has weaknesses and vulnerabilities than can be exploited. I'm sure I'll slay both Yun and Yang later on tonight with E. Honda.

You should definitely get the Arcade Edition.
 
Kurtis Stryker said:
Yun and Yang are completely different fighters from Ryu and Akuma. Yun and Yang are very tricky, and certainly have a different technique than the other fighters in the game. But, every fighter in SF has weaknesses and vulnerabilities than can be exploited. I'm sure I'll slay both Yun and Yang later on tonight with E. Honda.

You should definitely get the Arcade Edition.
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i meant in terms of popularity.
 
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