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Thread: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

  1. #6081
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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarkatan Trash View Post
    The people who do want the franchise to burn entirely are the people I legitimately hate. As for the whole "lost respect for Boon" thing, I must ask; where would MK be in the first place if it weren't for him? The simple answer is, completely nonexistent.
    You can still like the games that a dev does and lose respect for something else that they did, though.
    If Boon and NRS just do another MK9 type of reboot for MK12 after the way that MK11 ended, yeah I'd sure as hell lose respect for the whole writing team and their inability tp write a good story without having to do Trilogy after Trilogy every 3 games.
    That said, I'd still love the franchise and want it to succeed.


    EDIT:
    I'll give you another example.
    The Dishonored franchise is my other favorite game franchise of all time (as you can see by my avatar), but I lost all respect for their writing team when they gave us this awesome redemption arc for Daud (an awesome anti-hero), and then proceeded to shit all over it and retcon it, in the very next game and standalone.

    I STILL love the Dishonored franchise and it's probably the other game series (aside from MK) in which I've poured a shit-load of hours into (and continue to do so), but I still lost some respect for them for ruining an awesome character like that.
    Last edited by Commander; 08-02-2019 at 10:00 AM.

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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarkatan Trash View Post
    The people who do want the franchise to burn entirely are the people I legitimately hate. As for the whole "lost respect for Boon" thing, I must ask; where would MK be in the first place if it weren't for him? The simple answer is, completely nonexistent.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    IMO Tobias is the mastermind behind MK and that's why I think 9 is the best MK, disregarding the trilogy of course. Obviously Boon made a big contribution to it but that doesn't mean I have to suck his schlong.
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    For a so called "true fan" it seems Tarkatan doesn't even know the history of MK development. It was Tobias that was crazy about Eastern culture and martial arts. He created the theme, settings and the early storyline. Hell, he was responsible FOR ENTIRE ROSTER DESIGN UP TO MK4. If not for Tobias, there would be no MK you know today. He was the visual engine behind entire MK. Cheezus, what a casual. I seriously despise people that dictate who is a real fan, and can't even get their shit right.

    Boon just kept dragging MK later on. Which might explain why MK9 felt so good, while MKX and MK11 feel like they are creatively bankrupt. It is Game of Thrones all over again. Once they passed the original books, that's it. Hence the resets.
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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Man, this thread went to shit pretty quickly. Is MK11 really that bad?
    Where's Fujin?

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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Misucra View Post
    For a so called "true fan" it seems Tarkatan doesn't even know the history of MK development. It was Tobias that was crazy about Eastern culture and martial arts. He created the theme, settings and the early storyline. Hell, he was responsible FOR ENTIRE ROSTER DESIGN UP TO MK4. If not for Tobias, there would be no MK you know today. He was the visual engine behind entire MK. Cheezus, what a casual. I seriously despise people that dictate who is a real fan, and can't even get their shit right.

    Boon just kept dragging MK later on. Which might explain why MK9 felt so good, while MKX and MK11 feel like they are creatively bankrupt. It is Game of Thrones all over again. Once they passed the original books, that's it. Hence the resets.
    But who programmed the original game? Boon did.

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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarkatan Trash View Post
    But who programmed the original game? Boon did.

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    And? Yeah he programmed and he was responsible for game design (not to confuse it with visual design. Game designers decide things like balancing and other in game mechanics). He put everything that Tobias created in a game format. Doesn't change the fact that it was Tobias that came up with entire setting. You can't program if you don't have the assets. Tobias created all of the assets, Boon put them in the game. So yeah once again. Just shows that you're full of shit. "MK wouldn't exist if not for Boon!" Programmers can be found anywhere. Good ideas on other hand? Not so much.

    Hence why visionaries swim in money. Most of them don't even do the heavy lifting, but if not for them you wouldn't know from where to begin.

    P.S Just for the record to any programmers out there. Not shitting on you. I do programming myself, so I know that programmers are the ones that make the cogs turn, but in this case. It is Tobias that takes the credit for existence of MK. If he created the IDEA and the IMAGE of MK, then he is de facto creator, without whom we wouldn't be having MK to begin with.
    Last edited by Misucra; 08-03-2019 at 03:21 AM.
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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mandead View Post
    Man, this thread went to shit pretty quickly. Is MK11 really that bad?
    Eh. I guess depends on the opinion. The game has split the MK community. Some hate it, some consider it as the best MK ever.

    Though it is safe to say that we can coexist. At least in this forum. I don't see myself and Nicholaidas tearing other's throats, though we are at the opposite sides.
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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Misucra View Post
    And? Yeah he programmed and he was responsible for game design (not to confuse it with visual design. Game designers decide things like balancing and other in game mechanics). He put everything that Tobias created in a game format. Doesn't change the fact that it was Tobias that came up with entire setting. You can't program if you don't have the assets. Tobias created all of the assets, Boon put them in the game. So yeah once again. Just shows that you're full of shit. "MK wouldn't exist if not for Boon!" Programmers can be found anywhere. Good ideas on other hand? Not so much.

    Hence why visionaries swim in money. Most of them don't even do the heavy lifting, but if not for them you wouldn't know from where to begin.

    P.S Just for the record to any programmers out there. Not shitting on you. I do programming myself, so I know that programmers are the ones that make the cogs turn, but in this case. It is Tobias that takes the credit for existence of MK. If he created the IDEA and the IMAGE of MK, then he is de facto creator, without whom we wouldn't be having MK to begin with.
    In video games, only programming counts as creating, because gameplay is what matters the most. How can you play a game that has a setting, story, and all that other shit without having a programmed product that you can play?

    THAT'S why Boon gets the credit, because he's the one that made it playable. If this were a movie, TV show, or anyone like that, THEN you'd have a case to credit Tobias, but Tobias didn't make it playable.

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    Last edited by Tarkatan Trash; 08-03-2019 at 08:22 AM.

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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Mk11 is fair to me as an impression. I just think that the series didn't need a reboot in the first place, just like SF and others. If characters died off since MK Armageddon, then not a problem. Creative new generation characters can always be made to take their place.

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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lygophilia View Post
    Creative new generation characters can always be made to take their place.
    Because that always works with the fandom.

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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarkatan Trash View Post
    In video games, only programming counts as creating, because gameplay is what matters the most. How can you play a game that has a setting, story, and all that other shit without having a programmed product that you can play?
    I agree with this.

    Tao Feng Fist of the Lotus is Tobias' baby yet no one remembers it. Why? Because it had lacking fighting mechanics (limb damage wasn't implemented in a way that worked well and the game was generally mediocred).

    Story and setting matters and is good flavor for a solid playable game, but if the game is mediocre or bad it means jack shit.

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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarkatan Trash View Post
    In video games, only programming counts as creating, because gameplay is what matters the most. How can you play a game that has a setting, story, and all that other shit without having a programmed product that you can play?

    THAT'S why Boon gets the credit, because he's the one that made it playable. If this were a movie, TV show, or anyone like that, THEN you'd have a case to credit Tobias, but Tobias didn't make it playable.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    So by your logic... it is the chef that gets the credit for providing the food. Not the farmer that cultivated and grown the bounty, and then supplied the said chef? Ok...

    Yeah sure. Chef is important, as he makes the wheat into an edible bread. But he can't make bread if there is no WHEAT.

    Same with programmers and artists. There is a good reason why video game industry favors artists/visionaries over programmers. You can't program something if you don't have the assets. Programmers take the credit for making software or operating systems. But in video games? Ha. To make a game you need to have the assets. Programmers don't make the assets. They put them together. The ones that create ENTIRE library of assets to be used, are the artists. Now I know that there were more people working on MK. But let's imagine. Boon is the programming team, and Tobias is the artist team.

    So. Tobias has to create Stages, Worlds, Characters (their looks and backstories), he has to think of all abilities, and then write the main story. Once he is done. Boon gets all of the assets Tobias created and puts them together. He put characters on stages, make them do the moves that Tobias wrote and then as game designer has to adjust that those things are balanced. So basically Boon has to take care of numbers, while Tobias does entire world building.

    Yeah sure. If gameplay sucks, it doesn't matter how beautiful the lore is, if you can't enjoy it. But at the same time, I can give you a list of games that run smooth af but nobody cares about them as characters are boring, world is boring and nobody cares what is going on there.

    Tao Feng Fist of the Lotus is Tobias' baby yet no one remembers it. Why? Because it had lacking fighting mechanics (limb damage wasn't implemented in a way that worked well and the game was generally mediocred).
    Actually there were multiple reasons why that game failed. First of all. That game was competing with MK. It tried to safely squeeze in between Deadly Alliance and Deception, but it still was overshadowed. 2. Lore and characters were boring. I saw that he was trying to accomplish with the game, but it needed way more time to be polished. Which they didn't have as the next year Deception came out and would have COMPLETELY overshadowed the game. Not to mention Tobias hit a gem with Mortal Kombat lore, which was unique back then, while Tao Feng was just another Chinese style flick. So yeah. It wasn't just programming.

    Point is. Both sides are important, so giving Boon credit and claiming that HE IS THE REASON why MK exists is ignorant. Ok go on.

    Hey programmer make me a game!

    About what?

    Dunno. You think about it.

    I can't make the game if I don't know what I am making.

    Hence why artists come FIRST in the development. Without them you have NOTHING and programmers CAN'T DO SHIT.
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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Misucra View Post
    So by your logic... it is the chef that gets the credit for providing the food. Not the farmer that cultivated and grown the bounty, and then supplied the said chef? Ok...

    Yeah sure. Chef is important, as he makes the wheat into an edible bread. But he can't make bread if there is no WHEAT.

    Same with programmers and artists. There is a good reason why video game industry favors artists/visionaries over programmers. You can't program something if you don't have the assets. Programmers take the credit for making software or operating systems. But in video games? Ha. To make a game you need to have the assets. Programmers don't make the assets. They put them together. The ones that create ENTIRE library of assets to be used, are the artists. Now I know that there were more people working on MK. But let's imagine. Boon is the programming team, and Tobias is the artist team.

    So. Tobias has to create Stages, Worlds, Characters (their looks and backstories), he has to think of all abilities, and then write the main story. Once he is done. Boon gets all of the assets Tobias created and puts them together. He put characters on stages, make them do the moves that Tobias wrote and then as game designer has to adjust that those things are balanced. So basically Boon has to take care of numbers, while Tobias does entire world building.

    Yeah sure. If gameplay sucks, it doesn't matter how beautiful the lore is, if you can't enjoy it. But at the same time, I can give you a list of games that run smooth af but nobody cares about them as characters are boring, world is boring and nobody cares what is going on there.



    Actually there were multiple reasons why that game failed. First of all. That game was competing with MK. It tried to safely squeeze in between Deadly Alliance and Deception, but it still was overshadowed. 2. Lore and characters were boring. I saw that he was trying to accomplish with the game, but it needed way more time to be polished. Which they didn't have as the next year Deception came out and would have COMPLETELY overshadowed the game. Not to mention Tobias hit a gem with Mortal Kombat lore, which was unique back then, while Tao Feng was just another Chinese style flick. So yeah. It wasn't just programming.

    Point is. Both sides are important, so giving Boon credit and claiming that HE IS THE REASON why MK exists is ignorant. Ok go on.

    Hey programmer make me a game!

    About what?

    Dunno. You think about it.

    I can't make the game if I don't know what I am making.

    Hence why artists come FIRST in the development. Without them you have NOTHING and programmers CAN'T DO SHIT.
    I get what you're saying, but I think it's also ignorant to (basically) say that Boon's contribution isn't as important as Tobias', because 'if it wasn't Boon, it would be someone else'.

    There have been about 20 Dragon Ball fighting games and only FighterZ is a solid, competitive fighting game. Because it was made by ArcSys, who are amazing developers and programmers. They used the same lore that dozen other programmers used, but only they utilized it in such an amazing way.


    So Boon being the head honcho of programming for a franchise that has been kicking for almost 30 years is no small feat and isn't something that anyone can do or scoff like if it wasn't him it would be someone else.


    What I'm trying to say is that during this debate you two are having, you are so quick to dismiss each others' points despite both making solid ones. You're both right and you're both wrong.

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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Misucra View Post
    So by your logic... it is the chef that gets the credit for providing the food. Not the farmer that cultivated and grown the bounty, and then supplied the said chef? Ok...

    Yeah sure. Chef is important, as he makes the wheat into an edible bread. But he can't make bread if there is no WHEAT.

    Same with programmers and artists. There is a good reason why video game industry favors artists/visionaries over programmers. You can't program something if you don't have the assets. Programmers take the credit for making software or operating systems. But in video games? Ha. To make a game you need to have the assets. Programmers don't make the assets. They put them together. The ones that create ENTIRE library of assets to be used, are the artists. Now I know that there were more people working on MK. But let's imagine. Boon is the programming team, and Tobias is the artist team.

    So. Tobias has to create Stages, Worlds, Characters (their looks and backstories), he has to think of all abilities, and then write the main story. Once he is done. Boon gets all of the assets Tobias created and puts them together. He put characters on stages, make them do the moves that Tobias wrote and then as game designer has to adjust that those things are balanced. So basically Boon has to take care of numbers, while Tobias does entire world building.

    Yeah sure. If gameplay sucks, it doesn't matter how beautiful the lore is, if you can't enjoy it. But at the same time, I can give you a list of games that run smooth af but nobody cares about them as characters are boring, world is boring and nobody cares what is going on there.



    Actually there were multiple reasons why that game failed. First of all. That game was competing with MK. It tried to safely squeeze in between Deadly Alliance and Deception, but it still was overshadowed. 2. Lore and characters were boring. I saw that he was trying to accomplish with the game, but it needed way more time to be polished. Which they didn't have as the next year Deception came out and would have COMPLETELY overshadowed the game. Not to mention Tobias hit a gem with Mortal Kombat lore, which was unique back then, while Tao Feng was just another Chinese style flick. So yeah. It wasn't just programming.

    Point is. Both sides are important, so giving Boon credit and claiming that HE IS THE REASON why MK exists is ignorant. Ok go on.

    Hey programmer make me a game!

    About what?

    Dunno. You think about it.

    I can't make the game if I don't know what I am making.

    Hence why artists come FIRST in the development. Without them you have NOTHING and programmers CAN'T DO SHIT.
    Last time I checked, video games are played with a controller, a console, game software, and a TV, not with pen and paper!

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickolaidas View Post
    I get what you're saying, but I think it's also ignorant to (basically) say that Boon's contribution isn't as important as Tobias', because 'if it wasn't Boon, it would be someone else'.

    There have been about 20 Dragon Ball fighting games and only FighterZ is a solid, competitive fighting game. Because it was made by ArcSys, who are amazing developers and programmers. They used the same lore that dozen other programmers used, but only they utilized it in such an amazing way.


    So Boon being the head honcho of programming for a franchise that has been kicking for almost 30 years is no small feat and isn't something that anyone can do or scoff like if it wasn't him it would be someone else.


    What I'm trying to say is that during this debate you two are having, you are so quick to dismiss each others' points despite both making solid ones. You're both right and you're both wrong.
    You're missing what I am saying or I just failed at explaining properly.

    I don't say that programmer isn't important. I am saying that they don't sell the game.

    How many people know what is in all those cheeseburgers? Do you think they give a shit? No. They buy them cause they look nice, smell nice and taste nice. They don't care most of the time what is in them. Hell as a guy who disliked garlic, I didn't realize my cheeseburgers had them until I went into a kitchen tour.

    Same with VIDEO games. What defines MK? Dragon symbol. Who created the symbol? Artists. Who are the most iconic characters of MK? Sub zero and Scorpion. Who created them? Artists.

    Yeah sure, if we are talking ethics and respect. Everyone is equally important. When I worked on game projects with different teams, nobody was less important, no matter how much they contributed. All is nice and dandy among us.

    But when it comes to business, brand recognition, it is the artists that are responsible. It is the name, the visuals that catch the eye. Game can run smooth af, but if it doesn't have something memorable, then it will be forgotten. Steam is filled with tons of amazingly crafted games. They are both visually stunning and have amazing gameplay. But they just don't click. Why? Visuals aren't as catchy. Sure they look pretty for a bit, but are soon forgotten. Why do you think most of the games now sell graphics over content? Look how many games have been released with close to photorealistic graphics, but barely any content. AND THEY SELL. Why? Visuals. Brand recognition. All that came from the artists. Programmers are the dark horses. They are the labor force you don't see. They are the cogs under the hood. And they can't make the game without the artists. That's how development works. First stage is always us artists sitting down and working on assets, while programmers have to sit back and look at their phones while we are working. Once we are done, they take over.

    Hence saying that Boon's programming CARRIED MK is sorry, but laughable. He hasn't programmed since Deception as well. He has been a creative director for the longest time now. MK brand is what carried Boon. They failed at multiple MK projects as well, but could rise up cause of the brand name. Both Armageddon and MKvDC were financial failures. Other franchises tend to get destroyed after one failure. VERY few get a chance to mess up twice.

    And do you know that MK9 was pretty much set on being the last MK? Hence why they went all out. And oh boy. Retelling of original trilogy brought back the life to MK (what a coincidence, that it was original trilogy). It is the brand, it always was the brand. Artists are what carries the franchises. The visuals. Not the programmers. So yeah. It is Tobias idea that is carrying the MK. Though to be fair, knowing first hand how team dev works, I seriously doubt that he was the only one that shaped the vision of the game.

    Though to be fair, lack of technological progress and stagnation of MK, has put off people like me off. But that still didn't stop MK11 from having one of the biggest launches and selling well. Cause at the end of the day. Brand and the visuals. They always come first. Otherwise casuals wouldn't even bother buying the game.
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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarkatan Trash View Post
    Last time I checked, video games are played with a controller, a console, game software, and a TV, not with pen and paper!

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    Last time I checked you were telling me how Scorpion was carrying Mortal Kombat. Guess how Scorpion was born? Pen and paper. So yeah. Please try again.
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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Misucra View Post
    And do you know that MK9 was pretty much set on being the last MK? Hence why they went all out. And oh boy. Retelling of original trilogy brought back the life to MK (what a coincidence, that it was original trilogy). It is the brand, it always was the brand.
    Well, you say that it was the return to the original trilogy that sold the game. I say it was the return to 2(.5)D fighting *gameplay* which was more solid than ever, and far improved than the previous entries.

    And if it was the based-on-the-original-trilogy schtick that sold the games, then MK9 would have sold more than MKX and MK11, since those two were not based on the original trilogy.

    Except that it didn't. It sold less.

    Now, I understand I may sound as if I am dismissing design and lore - I am not. Havik is currently my favourite MK character because of the MKX comic, which has nothing to do with gameplay. Baraka is my second favorite because of how he looks. Noob is my third favorite because of who he once was. Nothing has to do with gameplay (I was completely indifferent to Havik back in Deception).

    But there are also thousands of MK fans and players who like characters simply because of the way they play, ignoring their looks and lore. Same kind of players don't give a rats ass about the story mode and the lore, and only care about optimizing their character for online play. For those players (who are a lot), lore is irrelevant and the only thing that matters are functions.


    In the end, tomato, tah mah to ...
    Last edited by Nickolaidas; 08-03-2019 at 03:23 PM.

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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Misucra View Post
    Last time I checked you were telling me how Scorpion was carrying Mortal Kombat. Guess how Scorpion was born? Pen and paper. So yeah. Please try again.
    You know what you can play with pen and paper?

    Hangman.

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    Lin Kuei Assassin Misucra's Avatar
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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickolaidas View Post
    Well, you say that it was the return to the original trilogy that sold the game. I say it was the return to 2(.5)D fighting *gameplay* which was more solid than ever, and far improved than the previous entries.

    And if it was the based-on-the-original-trilogy schtick that sold the games, then MK9 would have sold more than MKX and MK11, since those two were not based on the original trilogy.

    Except that it didn't. It sold less.
    1. MK9 came out before MKX and MK11. So... it is pretty obvious that MKX and MK11 should sell more... that's how proper business runs. You have to sell more, than previous iteration. If you sell less, then your product has failed. MKX was carried by pure hype from MK9, so it had both old fans, new fans and potential new customers. Same with MK11. Hype from previous MK games, helped that one. Though funny... MK11 sold less on PC. I wonder why...

    2. I don't remember MK9 being celebrated for its gameplay (I mean it was damn good), but wasn't it the CINEMATIC STORY MODE that made everyone wet their panties? Cause I swear, I remember people talking f$cking non stop about story mode. And I remember correctly as I was covering my ears for 3 months.

    3. 2.5D was not a defining reason. They could have done the game in 3D again and had same results. Just for the record, right now the most dominating fighting game is Tekken 7. It has more players, it attracts more viewers during tournaments and has more pros playing it. And guess what? It is 3D.

    Again though. I do agree that Visuals and programming have to work hand in hand. Visuals can be nice, but if character moves like a block, then people won't play the game. I mean let's look at game like Anthem. Nice visuals, but nobody is playing the game. Cause gameplay sucks, balancing sucks and there is nothing to do there. So in a team, programmers and artists are equally important.

    But business wise, it is Artists that make the sales. Hence why Anthem managed to sell. "It looked pretty! Oh no! But it sucks as a game!"

    "Oh look a new Ubisoft game! Those visuals look insane! So realistic!" buys the game "Oh no, but gameplay sucks!"

    So yeah.

    I mean same is happening with MKX and MK11. MK Pro scene is suffering. MKX Summer Jam had like only 80 players competing for 10k price. MK11 is also being shat on. Why? Cause gameplay is being dumbed down and made way easier to cater to casuals. Yeah sure, they got nice sales in the first 2 months. Gamers bought the game cause it looked pretty and looked fun. Now player base is dropping. Casuals are pissed at DLC times, while pro players are getting more and more pissed at gameplay mechanics. In the meantime Tekken 7, one of the hardest fighting games, has sold 4 mil copies, and even now beats MK11 in player count. Yet, it was released in freaking 2015.
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    Re: Mortal Kombat 11 General Discussion Media Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarkatan Trash View Post
    You know what you can play with pen and paper?

    Hangman.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    Did you just ask an elementary school student for a comeback? Tell him, that it was a good try. I give points for creativity.
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