My Shang Tsung poll

[VictorMefer]

If his enhanced Soul Steal / Morph only allows him to copy his opponent, then the disc would only have to load 3 characters.

Yeah, but it'd actually still load only two characters, Shang and his opponent. When Shang morphed, instead of the processor getting his data, it would get the data of his opponent, and process two different characters that are actually the same. Hope I could explain it to you, I'm not very good at explain stuff to people.

 

[whtillnvrb]

I'm sure you have read the others comments, they explained why him being able to morph is not likely in mk9. Forget the technical aspect of my argument, you skipped past the common sense part, Shang Tsung no longer fits the "boss" archtype and hasn't since mk1. He's shao Kahn's flunkie who's had his life spared numerous times, even after all his plans failed, when he finally did do something by forming the deadly alliance, it ended in failure after Quan Chi kicked his ass and the dragon king killed him. Shang Tsung couldn't be a boss in another MK ever again nor should he be, Deadly Alliance proved this. He is an interesting key character who's evolved into a normal cast member. A boss he is not.

But this is a retelling of the first 3 MKs so why would any of that matter. He was a boss in the first MK and this game will take place during the first MK along with MK2 and MK3. Your argument doesn't make sense in the time frame of this game. At the beginning of this game he will still be the host of the tournament on his island. All the problems that Liu Kang has caused him over the years haven't even happened yet.

 

[Grune_The_Destroyer]

yea your right, the size of the data was smaller and was readily avaliable off a cart where as with a cd / dvd / bluray the data is greater and it needs to be read first then made avaliable.

Unless both I'm misremembering something, and this GameFAQ guide I'm looking at now is wrong, Shang could morph in MKT for the Playstation, which had a comparable sized cast and was a disc based game. I'd say graphically MK9 is in scale graphically with the cell processor compared to MKT and whatever processing power the original Playstation had (just a guess, I have no concrete specs to prove it). Also more recently from the 3D aspect, Shinnok could morph on MK Gold for the Dreamcast.

Does anyone know how much of one of the past 3d game's total size is comprised of the characters vs. the background (serious question, if anyone could post something that would be great)? I'd guess the stage renders took up more space, which they wouldn't need or probably be downloading.

There probably would be latency in online matches I'm sure, but not unbearable to the average player. So, again I'm still not sold on them not finding a way to allow him to morph just based off of the disc read or RAM. Have they included it in the game? I mean we'll see. I'm not saying they have, I"m just trying to debunk that they "can't" do it.

(btw Eclipso this isn't directed at you, yours is just the post I chose to reply to).

But this is a retelling of the first 3 MKs so why would any of that matter. He was a boss in the first MK and this game will take place during the first MK along with MK2 and MK3. Your argument doesn't make sense in the time frame of this game. At the beginning of this game he will still be the host of the tournament on his island. All the problems that Liu Kang has caused him over the years haven't even happened yet.

I agree, the retelling aspect of this does lend itself to him being some sort of boss. I however am against both a young playable AND the old Shang Tsung boss existing at the same time as separate characters. If only one or the other is allowed, I'd prefer there be only the Old Shang Tsung be both a boss and playable (if you can't have both, then just as a boss).

 

[BBBLP]

Unless both I'm misremembering something, and this GameFAQ guide I'm looking at now is wrong, Shang could morph in MKT for the Playstation, which had a comparable sized cast and was a disc based game. I'd say graphically MK9 is in scale graphically with the cell processor compared to MKT and whatever processing power the original Playstation had (just a guess, I have no concrete specs to prove it).

In Trilogy, Shang could only morph into a chosen set of characters that were determined before the match, or if changed in the options, you could morph into anyone during a fight but you had to wait for it to load each time he morphed, which killed the pace of the match.

 

[Sleepy McNaperson]

But this is a retelling of the first 3 MKs so why would any of that matter. He was a boss in the first MK and this game will take place during the first MK along with MK2 and MK3. Your argument doesn't make sense in the time frame of this game. At the beginning of this game he will still be the host of the tournament on his island. All the problems that Liu Kang has caused him over the years haven't even happened yet.

we don't know "what will be changed" we can't sit here and say shang won't mean a similar fate of failure, or that he's going to be some big shot who doesn't fear shao kahn, but fine, if you want to throw that out how about this. Shang Tsung is not very appealing as a boss anymore, maybe in 1990 when morphing into all of the characters was cool but now he would just be a better mokujin or charade (tekken, soul calibur) I say NRS concentrates their efforts on making him into a unique and balanced playable character. I don't see what the big deal is and why people are so obsessed with him being a boss, he won't be THAT cool. next to Goro and Kahn i doubt shang tsung will capturing too many gamers attention. (did you see goro's x ray???) Unless of course you are a huge fan of him like me. i say just make him young a playable.

did people forget he was TECHNICALLY still a boss in Mk2, he wasn't as hard as kahn or kintaro but you fought him at the end, and the AI was a bit tougher than all of your previous opponents on your way up the mountain. you could tell it wasn't a regular fight, and guess what. Despite all of this he was still playable in mk2 and everything worked out fine. also people's idea of him turning into just your character during the match is lame, if he's not morphing constantly with access to the whole cast he isn't Tsung.

so why not make Shang Tsung into the soul stealing fire ball shooting teleporting character he has become in recent years? and with mk9's engine i'm sure his moves will be re imagined in a greater sense. tell me people why this is a bad idea? tell me why he shouldn't be a playable character

 

[Eclipso]

Unless both I'm misremembering something, and this GameFAQ guide I'm looking at now is wrong, Shang could morph in MKT for the Playstation, which had a comparable sized cast and was a disc based game. I'd say graphically MK9 is in scale graphically with the cell processor compared to MKT and whatever processing power the original Playstation had (just a guess, I have no concrete specs to prove it). Also more recently from the 3D aspect, Shinnok could morph on MK Gold for the Dreamcast.

Does anyone know how much of one of the past 3d game's total size is comprised of the characters vs. the background (serious question, if anyone could post something that would be great)? I'd guess the stage renders took up more space, which they wouldn't need or probably be downloading.

There probably would be latency in online matches I'm sure, but not unbearable to the average player. So, again I'm still not sold on them not finding a way to allow him to morph just based off of the disc read or RAM. Have they included it in the game? I mean we'll see. I'm not saying they have, I"m just trying to debunk that they "can't" do it.

(btw Eclipso this isn't directed at you, yours is just the post I chose to reply to).

No worries and like back back said you picked who you wanted to morph into and when you did it in game it stopped for a good second to a second and a half. You have a idea about the size vs. current processing power etc. but I am thinking the diffrence between sprite and polygon is signiciant. I thought Shinnok only "impersonated" moves and didnt actually morph?

Found this with a quick google search:

"The difference is that while sprites always orient toward the camera, textured polygons have independent 3d rotation. This means you can emit them and then rotate a camera around and they will remain oriented in the manner in which they were birthed...assuming you dont put any rotation on them."

I did a little more random reading on it and it just seems that the cart based / sprites are going to be hard to beat in terms of allowing Shang to morph again (with zero delay) while fighting.

 

[Reptil3]

the public have spoken! LOL

 

[whtillnvrb]

so why not make Shang Tsung into the soul stealing fire ball shooting teleporting character he has become in recent years? and with mk9's engine i'm sure his moves will be re imagined in a greater sense. tell me people why this is a bad idea? tell me why he shouldn't be a playable character

Just look at the poll. As of right now there is 70.46% of the people with you wanting a playable young Shang Tsung but 56.82% of them also think that old Shang Tsung should be some kind of boss because he was THE boss in MK 1 and even by your own admission he was a pseudo boss in MK2 even tho he was still a playable character. So I don't get why you are arguing instead of just voting for the opinion that you think is the best witch seem to be one of the playable opinions be it old or young.

 

[jdnice11]

I dont really know how i would feel about ST being a non playable boss. Granted in the 1st MK thats what he was but hes been in soo many other MK games as a playable character it would be weird if he was in the game but not playable. Maybe in certain parts of tue story as an old ST but ud def have to play him later as a youngn

 

[Sleepy McNaperson]

Just look at the poll. As of right now there is 70.46% of the people with you wanting a playable young Shang Tsung but 56.82% of them also think that old Shang Tsung should be some kind of boss because he was THE boss in MK 1 and even by your own admission he was a pseudo boss in MK2 even tho he was still a playable character. So I don't get why you are arguing instead of just voting for the opinion that you think is the best witch seem to be one of the playable opinions be it old or young.

i wasn't arguing, i merely wanted the opinion of others on WHY they feel he should be an unplayable boss character. I stated that i wanted him to be young and playable and explained WHY i feel like he shouldn't be an unplayable boss. I just wanted those who disagree with me to give reasons why they feel the way they do. Even you yourself haven't gone into much detail, you've simply been countering points in my argument without telling me why you want him as an unplayable boss (don't even know if you said playable or unplayable)

I was simply interested the reasoning behind others opinion my friend. Also just because i want him young and playable doesn't mean I'm against having him as some sort of boss in story mode during mk1 events or arcade mode , not an official boss though, maybe he can be like the pseudo boss he was in Mk2. My argument was mainly targeting those who felt he should remain an unplayable boss, this isn't the only forum i visit, and i've seen plenty of people share that opinion on he should be strictly an unplayable boss character and i guess i was hoping trmk could clear that up for me.

also, you should visit the ign boards man, it's pretty fun, if you are interested. tell em Sleepy sent you

http://boards.ign.com/mortal_kombat/b6027/p1

 

[whtillnvrb]

i wasn't arguing, i merely wanted the opinion of others on WHY they feel he should be an unplayable boss character. I stated that i wanted him to be young and playable and explained WHY i feel like he shouldn't be an unplayable boss. I just wanted those who disagree with me to give reasons why they feel the way they do. Even you yourself haven't gone into much detail, you've simply been countering points in my argument without telling me why you want him as an unplayable boss (don't even know if you said playable or unplayable)

I was simply interested the reasoning behind others opinion my friend. Also just because i want him young and playable doesn't mean I'm against having him as some sort of boss in story mode during mk1 events or arcade mode , not an official boss though, maybe he can be like the pseudo boss he was in Mk2. My argument was mainly targeting those who felt he should remain an unplayable boss, this isn't the only forum i visit, and i've seen plenty of people share that opinion on he should be strictly an unplayable boss character and i guess i was hoping trmk could clear that up for me.

also, you should visit the ign boards man, it's pretty fun, if you are interested. tell em Sleepy sent you

http://boards.ign.com/mortal_kombat/b6027/p1

Now that you have stated your opinion more clearly I guess I should clear up mine too. They have already shown an older Shang Tsung sitting on his throne in the background and I hope that he is some kind of boss in that form because he was a boss in the first MK and this is a retelling but I hope for a younger form too as a playable character. I don't want Shang Tsung at the top of the tower or anything, that should be Shao Kahn and in my opinion he should have stayed at the top the other bosses have nothing on him but old Shang Tsung should be up there too. Before Goro or after Goro I don't know tho. I'm kind of torn about that.

 

[Sleepy McNaperson]

Now that you have stated your opinion more clearly I guess I should clear up mine too. They have already shown an older Shang Tsung sitting on his throne in the background and I hope that he is some kind of boss in that form because he was a boss in the first MK and this is a retelling but I hope for a younger form too as a playable character. I don't want Shang Tsung at the top of the tower or anything, that should be Shao Kahn and in my opinion he should have stayed at the top the other bosses have nothing on him but old Shang Tsung should be up there too. Before Goro or after Goro I don't know tho. I'm kind of torn about that.

Me too man, i had that same question. Out of respect for mk1 shang tsung and going by the orignal story like tsung is after goro...HOWEVER....you've seen Goro just like i've seen Goro....i know it was a short clip but i don't think the shang tsung fight can live up to surpass that haha. If they make an unplayable boss tsung who comes after goro and disappoints, it would kill all of the momentum before the Kahn fight.

now on the basis of that, if you consider placing Goro after Tsung you have to look at MK2. Tsung was before kintaro but by that time he was barely in kahn's favor and kintaro was portrayed as superior to Goro. If you make Goro come after Tsung you open up the can of worms of Kintaro>Goro or tsung not getting the respect he deserves. it just seems like a lose lose situation.

however as you have stated many times this is a retelling, they may handle this better than both of us can imagine. only time will tell

 

[whtillnvrb]

Me too man, i had that same question. Out of respect for mk1 shang tsung and going by the orignal story like tsung is after goro...HOWEVER....you've seen Goro just like i've seen Goro....i know it was a short clip but i don't think the shang tsung fight can live up to surpass that haha. If they make an unplayable boss tsung who comes after goro and disappoints, it would kill all of the momentum before the Kahn fight.

now on the basis of that, if you consider placing Goro after Tsung you have to look at MK2. Tsung was before kintaro but by that time he was barely in kahn's favor and kintaro was portrayed as superior to Goro. If you make Goro come after Tsung you open up the can of worms of Kintaro>Goro or tsung not getting the respect he deserves. it just seems like a lose lose situation.

however as you have stated many times this is a retelling, they may handle this better than both of us can imagine. only time will tell

Yeah don't know how to handle the arcade tower and Shang maybe just young Shag before Goro for it and old Shang just in story mode. If you just fight old Shang one time in story then it would only be one really long load and maybe worth the wait to fight a morphing Shang one time and the end of the MK 1 chapter.

 

[Sleepy McNaperson]

Yeah don't know how to handle the arcade tower and Shang maybe just young Shag before Goro for it and old Shang just in story mode. If you just fight old Shang one time in story then it would only be one really long load and maybe worth the wait to fight a morphing Shang one time and the end of the MK 1 chapter.

yea i like that idea, maybe they can do a really long load just that one time in the MK1 chapter of the story mode. Not going to get my hopes up but i think this would settle any potential problems fans may have. you should have submitted this idea to them last year after e3 man! haha

 

[DeLeon Hughes]

Apparently people don't like the old man.

 

[Killer Ryno]

Ive said multiple times that i would 100 % prefer the younger shang tsung

 

[Grune_The_Destroyer]

I thought Shinnok only "impersonated" moves and didnt actually morph?

You may be right on that. I wasn't as into MK4, so my Gold argument may not be valid.

As for Trilogy, I do remember there being a second or second and a half delay in the morph. That probably would have been worse with online latency.

If NRS states they are unable to make him morphable in the game, I'd really like for them to get a technical breakdown as to WHY. Something along the lines of

"Each character model takes up Z amount of space on average. Reading from the disc doesn't work because the Blu-Ray(PS3)/DVD(Xbox) read speed is Bx, which translates to Y (G,M, or K)Bytes/sec. All of our character models combined take up roughly V(G,M, or K)Bytes. We can't load them to on-board memory because that only has T(G, or M) bytes total. We could have done a hybrid system perhaps, but we went with an all or nothing approach and unfortunately had to go with nothing." (Note - Z, B, Y, V, and T are placeholder variables for some real world numeric value).

That kind of breakdown would be nice because then people could take their code against the hardware specs and be certain their statement accurate. Whereas if you get this generic, stock, "the technology doesn't allow us to include that in the game" answer.....I mean I guess finding the proof in the code and hardware is on those who would really want to find the answer out in either case, but it'd be easier to tell if NRS was telling the truth or if they weren't and were just too lazy to put it in if they gave a technical breakdown like the one above.

 

[Eclipso]

You may be right on that. I wasn't as into MK4, so my Gold argument may not be valid.

As for Trilogy, I do remember there being a second or second and a half delay in the morph. That probably would have been worse with online latency.

If NRS states they are unable to make him morphable in the game, I'd really like for them to get a technical breakdown as to WHY. Something along the lines of

"Each character model takes up Z amount of space on average. Reading from the disc doesn't work because the Blu-Ray(PS3)/DVD(Xbox) read speed is Bx, which translates to Y (G,M, or K)Bytes/sec. All of our character models combined take up roughly V(G,M, or K)Bytes. We can't load them to on-board memory because that only has T(G, or M) bytes total. We could have done a hybrid system perhaps, but we went with an all or nothing approach and unfortunately had to go with nothing." (Note - Z, B, Y, V, and T are placeholder variables for some real world numeric value).

That kind of breakdown would be nice because then people could take their code against the hardware specs and be certain their statement accurate. Whereas if you get this generic, stock, "the technology doesn't allow us to include that in the game" answer.....I mean I guess finding the proof in the code and hardware is on those who would really want to find the answer out in either case, but it'd be easier to tell if NRS was telling the truth or if they weren't and were just too lazy to put it in if they gave a technical breakdown like the one above.

I agree, it would be educational to find out the specific reasons as to why it isnt possible, also why I would like to see Shang's entrance he comes in old and then morphs to young as a bit of a "homage" so to speak on what he used to be able to do and hopefully will be able to do again in the future.

 

[VictorMefer]

I agree, it would be educational to find out the specific reasons as to why it isnt possible, also why I would like to see Shang's entrance he comes in old and then morphs to young as a bit of a "homage" so to speak on what he used to be able to do and hopefully will be able to do again in the future.

Ok, so I'll try to explain it once and for all, and hopefully you'll all understand.

So, old cartridges and the RAM memory both load stuff instantly, because it's done electronically. Discs, including the HDD, are slower to load stuff, and that's because they have a mechanical piece, a reading pointer, that has to move to an specific position to read the data and load it to the RAM. This movement of the pointer take some time, and that causes the delay of actions. That's why your computer takes some time to open a program, for example. And that's why we have loading screens for games on discs (DVD, Blu-Ray or games installed on the HDD).

Now, back to the morphing problem. For Shang Tsung to morph into another character, using his/her model and movements, that character data would have to be loaded to the RAM. I know two ways they could do this:

- One of them is getting the data of the command input for the morph during the fight, finding out what character does that command stands for, searching for that character data and loading it. This is what they did in MKT for consoles. But there's a problem. As I explained, the loading process from the disc may take a while, so the game would have to stop while the data was loaded. In MKT, the game was sprite-based, so it should not take long for the data to be loaded, and yet we see those 1 to 1 and a half second delay. Now imagine in MK9, where characters models are in 3D, and they have a pretty longer move list, thus making the loading time bigger.

- Now the other way would be load all the characters data before the fight, that is, while on the loading screen. This would bring two problems, which I've already described earlier: the loading time would be HUGE, because the game would have to load 26 character's data plus the stage, and there's the possibility the RAM wouldn't be enough to keep all this data.

So, when will we be able to see Shang Tsung's morph ability back? If NRS were willing to make MK again a sprite-based game, it probably would be possible to have the morphs back. If they keep the 3D style, like in MK9, it will be harder. I know that memory will certainly be improved over the years, on the next consoles. But so will the graphics, and characters data tends to get bigger and bigger. The best solution is to find a new, faster way to load data from discs. And this is something that cientist have already and are still trying to do. It may take a long time yet. Unfortunately.

So, as you can see, I tried to explain it. If anyone still doesn't understand, just ask. And I'm not trying to get hopes down with this explanation, I want Shang's morph back as much as you do, I'm just exposing the facts that I know. I still have hopes NRS will come with a solution for the morph problem.

 

[UncleRuckus]

I really like Shang as an unplayable boss character. I like Shang in general throughout the years but, I much rather see the old Shang Reimagined with more magical moves and be able to turn into the origingal Kung Lao. It makes a lot of sense since the original Kung Lao was a major soul taken by Shang years ago plus, he had to be a fomidle foe since he was a champ at one point. Shang doen't need to be able to morph into everybody to be a evil socerous boss. I think the morphing was cool back in the day but, its not necessary anymore. To me it doesn't make sense for him to be able to morph into warriors who's soul he hasn't consumed anyway.

Bottom line: Leave Shang old, give him his multiple fire balls/fire rise, give him the ability to turn in to the original Kung Lao, and give him a healing move. Nuff Said!