Alternate to Tier Lists

REPTILE 0009

REPTILE 0009

New member
A lot of people seem to be against the idea of tier lists. I think that instead of a tier list we should just have strength/weakness, and best/worst matchups list for each of the characters. I'm not exactly sure of the reliability of the matchups in the strategy guide. For example, the guide says Mileena's worst matchup is Raiden. Yet wouldn't her worst matchup be someone like Johnny Cage, if she's a keep-away character, or someone like Noob, who's Shadow attacks she can't Ball Roll under. So I wanted to know your thoughts one doing this instead?
 
REPTILE 0009 said:
A lot of people seem to be against the idea of tier lists. I think that instead of a tier list we should just have strength/weakness, and best/worst matchups list for each of the characters. I'm not exactly sure of the reliability of the matchups in the strategy guide. For example, the guide says Mileena's worst matchup is Raiden. Yet wouldn't her worst matchup be someone like Johnny Cage, if she's a keep-away character, or someone like Noob, who's Shadow attacks she can't Ball Roll under. So I wanted to know your thoughts one doing this instead?
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A nice thought, but it does fall prey to some of the some problems as the tier lists. They're still very much based on individual views on the matter and they don't take into account the skill of the user. Not saying it shouldn't be done but it does seem a lot like the information offered is basically the information behind the tier lists. Tier lists use character match-ups to determine who has the greatest number of advantages.
 
Tiers lists never really meant anything to me and I've always found them overrated. Seriously, I play with characters I like and am good with, not characters who supposedly better than another character. Some people just act like you can't get good with a character who's in a low tier and that's annoying.
 
I dont pay attention to tier lists. I was using noob, who is considered to be a lower tier, and I was smoking guys who had a much higher rank than I was; while they were using kung lao and what not
 
Kokoro said:
Tiers lists never really meant anything to me and I've always found them overrated. Seriously, I play with characters I like and am good with, not characters who supposedly better than another character. Some people just act like you can't get good with a character who's in a low tier and that's annoying.
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I agree. It's like a auto racing, the car is only as good as it's driver.
 
saix88 said:
I agree. It's like a auto racing, the car is only as good as it's driver.
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hm..more like AutoX racing with different cars modded differently such as turbos, suspension setup..ect. You can have the best car but only the best driver can capitalize it. You take a less modded car but in the hands of a pro driver, can out drive/maneuver a car with turbo with a less skilled driver.

Mods = Character Tools such as moves per situation.
 
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I don't let tier lists dictate the characters I do and don't play, I always play my favorites (Hitomi in DOA, Kitana in MK, etc, etc)

That said, to completely ignore tier lists isn't a good mentality. Understanding character match ups is a very important part of the game, and to block out that type of information will do nothing but make your life more challenging, especially if you play more then one character.

I think it's too early for a lot of people to be generating tier lists. Tom Brady is likely the most reliable source at this point due to the fact he's been playing/testing the game for months, while a lot of 'us' have had it for mere weeks.

People always jump the gun on these things. It's the same thing every time a new fighter comes out. Also, people need to realize that just because a character is low tier doesn't mean they can't win. It just means they're facing a lot of poor match ups, and will need to work a lot harder to be successful.
 
I don't believe in Tier lists, too many parameters are being neglicted for it to be valid (player's condition that day, the feelings you have for the character you are testing and the motivation to play as him, etc...) I agree with all the people who just play with their favorite no matter where he stands in the tier list.
 
REPTILE 0009 said:
we should just have strength/weakness, and best/worst matchups list for each of the characters.
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Well a tier list is basically what you just described. Except it is also taking into consideration tournament results, character usage and pros insights.

People whining about tier lists just don't know how to read them. Or don't know what they actually mean.

I'm against BS tier list made by casual/noob players that don't know anything about the game. But a real tier list made by top players could actually be interesting. Like the ones they make for SSF4, that kind of list is very useful for example to know who you need to watch out for and what matchups you need to work on etc.

This is a good tier list for example: http://iplaywinner.com/display/Show....png?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1294258475181 (although quite outdated)
 
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There seems to be some confusion over what a tier list actually is. First of all, it is not a ranking of who you should/shouldn't be. Rather, it is a ranking of who has the best tools to win in an overall sense.

Being top tier means that characters has a lot and/or very useful moves.

Being bottom means that character has few and/or not so useful moves.

In MK9, Kung Lao for instance has a lot of really good tools; teleport with three variations; several hat throw variations covering different angles/areas of the screen; relatively easy to pull off combos that net him decent damage; dive-kick etc. All these moves make him a threat to his opponent regardless of where they are on the screen - that's why he's regarded as top.

But, none of that makes him unbeatable at all - difficult maybe, but not unbeatable. You aren't automatically going to win if you use Kung lao, but you will probably find it easier to win with him when compared to say Sheeva or Baraka simple because he's got better tools.

In even simpler terms: top tiers just have an easier time winning than compared to bottom tiers - but it's not a gaurantee however. Additionally, don't let tiers dictate who you should be: if you happen to like Sheeva's (or whoever's) moveset/playstyle, by all means use them - don't let anyone tell you different.
 
Pakman said:
Being top tier means that characters has a lot and/or very useful moves.

Being bottom means that character has few and/or not so useful moves.
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What the hell are you talking about? That's not it at all lol.

Guile has 2 moves and he was godtier for a long time. It's not only the special moves that define how good a character is, it's rather his footsies tools, walk/dash speed, throw range, pokes start up frames, safe strings, wake up options and risk vs reward factor. Not to mention how well he does vs the rest of the cast.

Some characters can have a lot of great moves but still suck because of the risk vs reward (low damage output for example or very punishable on block stuff).


Pakman said:
In even simpler terms: top tiers just have an easier time winning than compared to bottom tiers
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Tom Brady would like to have a word with you. Sub Zero doesn't have an easy time at all. In fact he said he was one of the hardest character to use at high levels.

But yeah I understand what you meant.


Pakman said:
Additionally, don't let tiers dictate who you should be
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I agree with this though. Pick the character you like, not the character that is on top of the tier. Having fun is more important than winning. Plus, I believe any character in the right hands can potentially be top and beat any of the god tier.
 
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The problem also with early Tier lists is that hard-to-learn characters or characters that require a different tactical approach tend to fall down the list.... until more people get to know them better.

I don't know how many times I've seen people say "What? Cyrax is botton tier? BS! I can beat anyone with him!" by people who actually know how to use his bombs properly or at all.

Or "SubZero's so freaking slow, SHIT TIER!!!!!" when they don't know how to read and trap people with the ice clone, always slide at the wrong moment and use his iceball from far on ready to attack opponents instead of jumping ones or at close range.


I do agree that a Tier list should also have a Notes section where it mentions why your odds of winning are low/high or simple tips:

Example:
BARAKA vs. NOOB: [3/10] (most of Baraka's attacks tend to push the opponent away which is bad against zoners - use wall combos and wakeups efficiently)
 
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Vulcan Hades said:
What the hell are you talking about? That's not it at all lol.

Guile has 2 moves and he was godtier for a long time. It's not only the special moves that define how good a character is, it's rather his footsies tools, walk/dash speed, throw range, pokes start up frames, safe strings, wake up options and risk vs reward factor. Not to mention how well he does vs the rest of the cast.
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1) I actually main Guile and I know what makes him top or bottom tier. In some versions of SF he is top tier, in others he's bottom regardless of how many tools he has (SF2 WW he was top and has less amount of moves compared to Vanilla SF4, where he is bottom). What moves him up or down is how useful his tool set is.

2) When I said tools I was referring to the entire move set, not just specials. For Kung Lao, I did name his special moves, but that was for example sake.

Some characters can have a lot of great moves but still suck because of the risk vs reward (low damage output for example or very punishable on block stuff).
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If there's an imbalance of risk vs reward, that means that character don't have great moves.

Tom Brady would like to have a word with you. Sub Zero doesn't have an easy time at all. In fact he said he was one of the hardest character to use at high levels.
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I was speaking in general terms :)
 
Alright then. Guess I misunderstood what you were trying to say. :)

But you just made it sound way more simple than it really was. I mean there's so much that has to be taken into consideration when designing a tier list, not just the actual moves of a character.
 
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