anyone disappointed by Mk? not as hardcore as i hoped, pretty spammy

To be fair the combos inputs are fairly lenient compared to the previous 2D games. Perhaps the problem is there is no consensus to what qualifies as hardcore.
 
FlawlessVictor said:
To be fair the combos inputs are fairly lenient compared to the previous 2D games. Perhaps the problem is there is no consensus to what qualifies as hardcore.
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Agreed for some I think they just want mortal kombat to be just like street fighter but as far as the combos being lenient I have to disagree anything other then the most basic of combos requires strict timing which online right now you might as well just forget
 
Relatively speaking, they are not harder than the past MKs. Online messes up the timing and inputs of all fighting games, not just MK.
 
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In my opinion even with lags most combos stay easy, because the input and timing stay the same. I've had no problems hitting Liu Kangs b+3,1,2 juggles in the corner (15 hits? 16? dont remember, dont play him that much) for example. I have a harder time hitting Ermacs air-teleport combos when the lag is noticeable for some reason.

edit: thought about it for a second, probably because i hit confirm the air teleport combos. Hit confirm + lag -> no good
 
FlawlessVictor said:
Relatively speaking, they are not harder than the past MKs. Online messes up the timing and inputs of all fighting games, not just MK.
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Ninja please...

there's lag that occasionally ruins an input or 2, then there's why-even-bother-playing lag...Mk ranks in the later for me...for ****s sake, even the selection menu lags...it's ridiculous!
 
FlawlessVictor said:
To be fair the combos inputs are fairly lenient compared to the previous 2D games. Perhaps the problem is there is no consensus to what qualifies as hardcore.
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There is a general consensus, but a lot of a game's "hardcoreness" has more to do with frame counting and stuff like that than combos.
 
Eks said:
There is a general consensus, but a lot of a game's "hardcoreness" has more to do with frame counting and stuff like that than combos.
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Perhaps you meant "tourney-worthy"? Even the worst of fighting games have frames. Anyways, you are right that there is more to a fighting game than combos.
 
FlawlessVictor said:
Perhaps you meant "tourney-worthy"? Even the worst of fighting games have frames. Anyways, you are right that there is more to a fighting game than combos.
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Yeah, everyone has to pay attention to frames in some form, but the less hardcore players usually not consciously doing it let alone pay a huge amount of attention to them. I'm saying that the really hardcore players pay a lot of attention to the frames (frame advantage, frame counting, etc.) and there is a general consensus within that audience about the differences between a hardcore game and a not-so-hardcore game.
 
I think this is the best looking fighter so far but mortal kombat will always be mortal kombat. i don't really believe in this whole "hardcore gamer" crap. To me hardcore gamers are a bunch of dudes who sit on they're butts playing games all day.
 
There's nothing wrong with wanting to become good at something you love...the term hardcore gamer is a compliment in my eyes...
 
i love being "hardcore", i have fun with the competition and i feel the better i get is only a reflection of how much thought and effort i put into the game

and this basically applies to every game i play
 
gamemk said:
Original poster is correct on all accounts, except for lamenting the loss of 3d Mortal Kombat. MK9 is unfinished, spammy, and an overall watered down mk/fighting game. People have to realize, ed boon designed this game with purposely cheesy/borderline broken properties, because he wants to attract the biggest audience possible. Why? Because fighting games do not generate big dollars when compared to other genres. Ed boon has stated this in magazines, and Monty Oum has stated this on one of Sebiel's youtube videos.

Ed could make the mortal kombat that most of us want, but he chooses not to.

1. Mk with the basic mechanics of mk2, like, crossup jump kicks that don't float over the opponent like they do in mk9.

2. Or, character specific jump kicks and jump punches, instead of the universal versions present in mk9. Varying JK and JP properties would also ensure that each one would travel at different angles in the air, like the old games had. How can a game have depth if 20+ character's share two identical moves, with similar properties?

3. Or how about solid collision detection? Why must players be subjected to being uppercuted when their character's ENTIRE BODY is visibly on the other side of their opponent? And why does a corner uppercut have to result in a character cartoonishly being launched conveniently out of harms way? Ed boon to the rescue to pluck the hapless noob player out of the corner into safety.

4. Why does every character in mk9 have footsies on the level of mk2 Liu Kang? Old MK is not a footsy heavy game, so only certain characters should have them in mk9.

5. Why would any designer of a mk game decide that Kung lao's spin should , not only be spammable, but also a dragon punch motion? rendering the move broken, spammy, and cheesy. in mk2 and to a lesser extent umk3, kung lao's spin must be used judiciously because the motion is difficult to incorporate and it has moderate startup and A LOT of RECOVERY! Mk 2 and UMK 3 would be unplayable if Kung lao had a dragon punch motion spin like mk9. UNPLAYABLE. If Capcom made a character like Kung Lao his health would be totally ass.

6. Why are there no jab moves with less than 6 frames? old mk had jab pressure, which, could've been tweaked and modernized to add more complexity to mk9. instead, every move is basically 6 to 30 frames long!

7. Speaking of jabs....Why does every juggle only utilize one arm? that looks stupid. Why would anyone decide to do this instead of having a natural looking one two punch, like old mk had, and like every fighting game except mk9 has.

8. Which brings me to the animations: they're horrible. The backgrounds in the game are stunning, but the character models and animations are atrocious. Worst of all they're canned, which means that instead of being able to enjoy a smooth, realistically moving mk game, I have to play a fighting game version of John Madden Warping, Sliding, Clipping football.

9. The BASICS are nonexistent, which is unacceptable. you just shouldn't do what NRS is doing, which is basically to cater to the lowest level of fighting game fan by stripping the game of subtle complexity, just to try to increase sales.

10. Complexities like: small frame jabs, and SWEEPS THAT CANNOT BE UPPERCUTED! (this has never existed in any 2d mk game, but, somehow, in mk9 you can uppercut sweeping characters). Plus, for some reason everyone in mk9 has a good anti-air uppercut. wtf? in mk2 only Liu Kang, Mileena, and Kitana have disgustingly good anti-air uppercuts. Every other character has one, but you have to KNOW the exact spacing in the game to pull them off. It's like in SSF4. Ryu's standing short kick can anti-air at 3/4 distance, while Ken's looks similar, but has a weaker hitbox, thus isn't as good.

11. The game is hella spammy and cheesy, and if you guys can't see that then i don't know what to say. You really think it's ok that a lot of character's in the game can just spam specials like they do? Imagine if Juri or Akuma could just spam dive kick, or if Zangief had Lariat and a projectile and a teleport? Or what if Ryu's tatsumaki was as fast as reptile's dash and had the same amount of recovery?

12. The Spam is there so casuals and 3d fans don't get beat in the game. As is the Slow frame execution, and the worst element ever added to fighting games since X-Factor: X-RAY!
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1. MK9 is a different game. Therefore some of the properties are different. Deal with it.
2. I agree. I would have liked to have seen unique jump attacks for every character.
3. I think the hitboxes are pretty straightforward. However I kinda see your point about corner uppercuts getting opp out of corner for free. However I think it looks better than old mk where you would sort of slide away from opp.
4. I don't see why this is a problem.
5. Kung Laos spin is punishable but its a really tight window. I wouldn't mind if it was a little easier to punish. Maybe they'll patch it eventually.
6. Johnny Cage doesn't have jab pressure? How about Kabal's block infinite? Also I wasn't aware that frame data was available...
7. Lots of characters have 1-2 punches...
8. I can see where you're coming from here. I initially hated the animation but I kinda got used to it. There are some things I would have animated differently but overall it gets the job done. Not sure what you mean about canned animations, the only fighting game i know that doesn't use canned animation are fighting simulators like UFC or FightNight.
9. The basics are definitely there, its all about pokes, pressure, mixups, zoning, and phat combos.
10. Again Johnny cage doesn't have jab pressure? How about Kabal's block infinite? Erm who cares about uppercuts hitting sweeps? Also not all uppercuts are equal. Shang Tsung's is garbage.
11-12. Yeah the game can be played spammy and cheesy, but so can every other fighting game in existence, even MK1-3.
Is this based on online play or real live matches? Also have you played in any tourneys? Playing online would make any fighter seem like a spam fest.
 
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Disclaimer: This is all my personal opinion of the OP and comments other people have said.

Everything in this thread about Mortal Kombat being "Tournament Worthy" is all wrong. Do you think EVO (just an example) is about the most technical or hardcore fighting games? No, not really, it is about the most popular fighting games, how many people want to play it, and how much money it brings to the table.

Popularity brings sponsors, sponsors bring people and money, people bring money, money brings popularity, and the circle starts over.

SF4 isn't the most popular fighter because it is the most hardcore or the most technical fighter. It is one of the most popular fighters because of it's history and how easy it is to pick up and start playing. That is why it was the biggest turn out EVO had ever seen last year.

Guilty Gear and BlazBlue being more hardcore and harder to learn (I guess that could be what "hardcore" is) aren't nearly as popular on the major tournament scene. Especially in America.

Mortal Kombat on the other hand has about as big of a fan base as Street Fighter, although not nearly as large of a tournament scene for past titles. MK9 changes all if that, especially with the names backing it. PerfectLegend, JWong FloE, Tom Brady. And with the age of the internet the tourney scene is blowing up. I wouldn't be surprised if MK at EVO 2K12 is as big as SSF4 was at EVO 2K10.

Though in the end only time will tell.

-

On topic, the OP is obviously more of a fan of 3D fighters, side-stepping and other mechanics.

Although I think that 3D ganges have their audience I in no easy support the idea that 2D fighters are out-dated or any less deep than 3D fighters. They are just deep in different ways.

Same thing goes for BB, MK9, SSF4. I don't think one is deeper than the other. I do think it is harder to learn BB, I'm a Rachel payer. I do not think it is so much deep as it is original. Same goes for Guilty Gear.

And SSF4 is the classic game from '91 with more characters, more moves, updated graphics, a super system, EX system (not the first game to do it, so stop ragging on MK for it), ultra system, and saving strike.

Like SSF4 and unlike BB & GG, MK9 has to stick to some semblance of what it was. You can't just change the entire move list for every character, too many old fans would cry. This is their first attempt in the new style. They are still working out the kinks. The game is still new and lots of things are being discovered. In SSF4 combos are still being discovered. I think it will be the same. And there are crossovers and mix-ups in this game. Watch done high level play videos.

Until online is ironed out you really need to base your options on same or linked console play on a wired pad or stick.

Anyway I lost track. MK is working within the framework of the old games, but added a lot. UMK3 roster minus Rain & Cyber Smoke, then add Cyber Sub Zero and Quan Chi. A super move, more moves, unique combos/normals mixed with dial-a-combos, EX specials, a breaker, wake-up specific specials, and updated graphics. Also, each jump kick, uppercut, and sweep have varying animations, speed and range. It isn't totally generic.

To those saying every character has a different variation of the same moves (a la projectiles and teleports), SSF4 has its fair share as well. To go even further in SSF4 there are 6 characters that are almost identical down to even what they are wearing, minus one. Almost EVERY character has a projectile or a move that send themselves across the screen. And the worst part? They all have the same motions to perform each move. At least MK9 mixes it up with a lot of different motions from character to character.

And again, MK9 is working within the framework older 2D titles have them.

SSF4 was to, I'm not trying to bash, I'm just saying.

Anyway, all the current gen fighters are great and deep in there own ways, they are just different. It's like one guy says Arcana Hearts 3 is the best and deepest fighter out right now and another says it is fun, but shallow and casual.

One thing I think does limit MK9 however is how many special attack and heavy normals are safe. Not sure if done of them will be fixed or changed, but it's the only think that is a slight bother to me.

My next gen fighter ranks:

Mortal Kombat & SSF4
BlazBlue: CS2 & Guilty Gear: XX AC Plus
Melty Blood (forget what the new one is called)
Arcana Hearts 3
King of Fighters XII (but KoF XIII might move up with MK & SSF4 if it ever comes out)
Tatsunoko vs Capcom
Marvel vs Capcom 3
Battle Fantasia
Soul Calibur 4
Tekken 6 (although Tekken Tag 2 might ramp this up).
Virtua Fighter 5
Dead or Alive 4

I tried to keep the list more current fighters, I can't wait to check out Skullgirls and Aquapaza or however you spell it. And I wish Demon's Bride would come over here...

Okay, I'm done. Night guys, thanks for reading my wall of mobile phone typed text...
 
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smoke1ne said:
i love being "hardcore", i have fun with the competition and i feel the better i get is only a reflection of how much thought and effort i put into the game

and this basically applies to every game i play
Click to expand...

It's really no different than being good at or really knowledgeable about sports.

BeyondSpectrality said:
To those saying every character has a different variation of the same moves (a la projectiles and teleports), SSF4 has its fair share as well. To go even further there are 6 characters that are almost identical down to even what they are wearing, minus one. Almost EVERY character has a projectile or a move that send themselves across the screen. And again, MK9 is working within the framework older 2D titles have them.
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This is a highly opinionated issue. Personally, I prefer that all of the basic attacks are similar (or even the same) because their specials are what make them unique. A lot of people think that each character should have their own variant of a standing front punch, but not I.
 
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Eks said:
BeyondSpectrality said:
To those saying every character has a different variation of the same moves (a la projectiles and teleports), SSF4 has its fair share as well. To go even further in SSF4 there are 6 characters that are almost identical down to even what they are wearing, minus one. Almost EVERY character has a projectile or a move that send themselves across the screen. And the worst part? They all have the same motions to perform each move. At least MK9 mixes it up with a lot of different motions from character to character.

And again, MK9 is working within the framework older 2D titles have them.
Click to expand...

This is a highly opinionated issue. Personally, I prefer that all of the basic attacks are similar (or even the same) because their specials are what make them unique. A lot of people think that each character should have their own variant of a standing front punch, but not I.
Click to expand...

If you'll notice I edited the original post to make my point a little better. You can see my edits in the quote of my post here. It was late and on my phone. I read the quote you made and thought, "Wow, I don't think that gets my point across properly, so please re-read and see if the new form of the paragraph changes what you decided to say.

Regardless, yes it is highly opinionated. That's why there is a disclaimer at the top of my post. :)
 
First off, I'd like to say that it pisses me off when OPs don't even reply to their own threads. Second, to me, a "Hardcore" game is a game that will be VERY hard to pick up for almost everyone. Thirdly, if you're "dissapointed" by Mortal Kombat, think it sucks, &/or have a problem with the way NRS is dealing with the DLC, play a bare-bones game like Marvel vs Capcom 3 for awhile. I personally enjoy Mortal Kombat, along with Tekken 6, Soul Calibur IV, UFC, & SSFIV.(Haven't played BB yet)

While we're talking about fighting games just want to add this pointless rant:

I'm also still waiting for a Bushido Blade reboot or a game similar to it, always loved the unique gameplay idea of that game. If done right, it could be one of the deepest games ever made, add improvised weapons, reversal/counter system, deeper injury system, be able to knock weapons out of your opponents hands & have him either defend & counter you attacks weaponless, attempt to regain his weapon, & use an improvised weapon, ability to kill opponent with your bare hands(realistically). I just realized that I'm getting a little TOO into the Bushido Blade idea so I'll just stop here. >_>
 
gamemk said:
Original poster is correct on all accounts, except for lamenting the loss of 3d Mortal Kombat. MK9 is unfinished, spammy, and an overall watered down mk/fighting game. People have to realize, ed boon designed this game with purposely cheesy/borderline broken properties, because he wants to attract the biggest audience possible. Why? Because fighting games do not generate big dollars when compared to other genres. Ed boon has stated this in magazines, and Monty Oum has stated this on one of Sebiel's youtube videos.

Ed could make the mortal kombat that most of us want, but he chooses not to.
Click to expand...

1. Mk with the basic mechanics of mk2, like, crossup jump kicks that don't float over the opponent like they do in mk9.
Click to expand...

Because it isn't MK2. Also I have no problem with cross-ups.

2. Or, character specific jump kicks and jump punches, instead of the universal versions present in mk9. Varying JK and JP properties would also ensure that each one would travel at different angles in the air, like the old games had. How can a game have depth if 20+ character's share two identical moves, with similar properties?
Click to expand...

Fair enough, but it's not so much of a problem because the sheer amount of moves that can tag you in the air on wake up and a lack of defense against it makes jumping in on someone very dangerous in general. Still, that could've also been mitigated by unique jump ins.

3. Or how about solid collision detection? Why must players be subjected to being uppercuted when their character's ENTIRE BODY is visibly on the other side of their opponent? And why does a corner uppercut have to result in a character cartoonishly being launched conveniently out of harms way? Ed boon to the rescue to pluck the hapless noob player out of the corner into safety.
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For the first part, it's because of the way hitboxes work in general. In fact, that's exactly why it probably confuses you - it ISN'T collision detection of the model. Every 2D fighting game (and some 3D fighting games) is like this. For the second part, yeah it's a bit goofy to uppercut your opponent out of the corner. On the bright side, why would you use an uppercut as anything other than an anti air or a combo ender? There are usually better tools to use than an uppercut at any given moment.

4. Why does every character in mk9 have footsies on the level of mk2 Liu Kang? Old MK is not a footsy heavy game, so only certain characters should have them in mk9.
Click to expand...

Because this isn't MK2.

5. Why would any designer of a mk game decide that Kung lao's spin should , not only be spammable, but also a dragon punch motion? rendering the move broken, spammy, and cheesy. in mk2 and to a lesser extent umk3, kung lao's spin must be used judiciously because the motion is difficult to incorporate and it has moderate startup and A LOT of RECOVERY! Mk 2 and UMK 3 would be unplayable if Kung lao had a dragon punch motion spin like mk9. UNPLAYABLE. If Capcom made a character like Kung Lao his health would be totally ass.
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Kung Lao's spin is stupid easy to punish... at least offline/in low lag. Spammable moves in general only really become an issue in lag and trust me, I know your pain. I can't punish a damn thing in lag. I lose significantly more than I should because I keep trying and the move either doesn't come out or it comes out too late because of the way lag and buffered moves interact. It's something I have to adjust to, but meh. It is what it is.

6. Why are there no jab moves with less than 6 frames? old mk had jab pressure, which, could've been tweaked and modernized to add more complexity to mk9. instead, every move is basically 6 to 30 frames long!
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This would be a good point if any fighting games that mattered actually had anything less than 6-frame jabs. The frame spread among the normals is pretty typical of the genre. That being said, normals in general seem a bit unbalanced. Some characters (Cage, Lao) have clearly better normals than others (Smoke especially.) It's partially made up for in strong specials, but...

7. Speaking of jabs....Why does every juggle only utilize one arm? that looks stupid. Why would anyone decide to do this instead of having a natural looking one two punch, like old mk had, and like every fighting game except mk9 has.
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Never played Tekken much, huh? This is an aesthetic thing. Besides, there are plenty of juggles that utilize full strings.

8. Which brings me to the animations: they're horrible. The backgrounds in the game are stunning, but the character models and animations are atrocious. Worst of all they're canned, which means that instead of being able to enjoy a smooth, realistically moving mk game, I have to play a fighting game version of John Madden Warping, Sliding, Clipping football.
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I think this was purposeful. Remember, they went back to using extensive motion capturing for this installment. It was meant to bring a bit of the cheese back to MK for nostalgia-fags. It doesn't affect game play very much and it actually looks silly enough to be enjoyable for me. You get used to it, really. You're playing a different game.

9. The BASICS are nonexistent, which is unacceptable. you just shouldn't do what NRS is doing, which is basically to cater to the lowest level of fighting game fan by stripping the game of subtle complexity, just to try to increase sales.
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Huh? What are you talking about? This is an argument I see a LOT in fighting game conversations in general. "The sequel changed the game, now it sucks! It's not this or that!" Fundamentals are still vitally important in this game. You just said yourself that every character has footsies on par with MK2 Kang. That doesn't make the game less complex - it makes it more so as everyone has a wider toolset to work from. I think your problem is that they made the game a little less MK and a little more Street Fighter. If anything, they want to attract higher skill players from other games to find enjoyment in theirs by giving them some of the tools they're used to. If you're losing to a dude spamming the same move, that's your fault for either a) not learning how to counter it (and there is always a way) or b) playing in such terrible lag that you can't punish. Let the dude win then leave and stop playing with him.

10. Complexities like: small frame jabs, and SWEEPS THAT CANNOT BE UPPERCUTED! (this has never existed in any 2d mk game, but, somehow, in mk9 you can uppercut sweeping characters). Plus, for some reason everyone in mk9 has a good anti-air uppercut. wtf? in mk2 only Liu Kang, Mileena, and Kitana have disgustingly good anti-air uppercuts. Every other character has one, but you have to KNOW the exact spacing in the game to pull them off. It's like in SSF4. Ryu's standing short kick can anti-air at 3/4 distance, while Ken's looks similar, but has a weaker hitbox, thus isn't as good.
Click to expand...

Someone else already mentioned it, but uppercuts are SO not all equal at all. Besides, uppercuts generally are one of the weakest choices for anti air since your follow up opportunities aren't as good as if you used some sort of special that was specific for the purpose. Uppercuts do bad things to the damage scaling too, so... As far as uppercuttable sweeps... then don't uppercut except to punish, anti-air or end a combo. It's not meant to be a ground vs. ground tool, but it's there to make dash-block-cancel-sweep a bit less abusable.

11. The game is hella spammy and cheesy, and if you guys can't see that then i don't know what to say. You really think it's ok that a lot of character's in the game can just spam specials like they do? Imagine if Juri or Akuma could just spam dive kick, or if Zangief had Lariat and a projectile and a teleport? Or what if Ryu's tatsumaki was as fast as reptile's dash and had the same amount of recovery?
Click to expand...

Yes because every special in the game is extremely easy to punish... offline. Online is a different story and I already went through that, but online isn't a good reflection of a fighting game's mechanics because of the innate lag. It's there to be for fun and practice. Also note that because of the lag, online tends to be very momentum driven. If you're constantly on the defensive, you have MUCH fewer opportunities to break free due to the lag than you would offline. The nasty blockstrings suddenly become sure wins if you can perform them in lag.

12. The Spam is there so casuals and 3d fans don't get beat in the game. As is the Slow frame execution, and the worst element ever added to fighting games since X-Factor: X-RAY!
Click to expand...

See above on spam. X-Ray moves... are literally every other series' Super or Desperation moves. Power-wise, they're a bit more on-par with SF4's ultras or KoF's SDMs, but their uses are nearly EXACTLY the same. It's the same element people have been playing with for almost 20 years now, it just happened to finally be added to MK. Also remember that X-Ray moves aren't necessarily the best use of your meter at any given point and they are SUPREMELY easy to avoid if you're cautious and keep an eye on the other dude's meter. The meter in general is actually one of the best rounded mechanics in the game. Combo Breakers and EX moves give the game an extraordinary layer of depth.

It really seems to me like you just need to learn how to play MK9 and stop playing it like it's MK2. They're entirely different games.
 
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