Mortal Kombat HD Remix with MUGEN

So I thought I'd give some crit on the recent stage work being done. Firstly badmouse's goro's lair:

badmouse said:
gl_v2.png
Click to expand...

I did download the high res one, but it's disappeared now from this thread so this one will have to do for the post.
Anyway so you've done a great job badmouse, however there are things I feel need to be changed about it. The most important one is tone and lighting. This Goro's Lair reminds me more of the MK9 remake, which I consider a modernization. The original Lair is quite different:

glref1.png


The light source is not flames, but is actually coming from the top of the screen, which I assume is moonlight. This creates a very different feel compared to your version. The changes I'd like to see made:

1. Remove flames, change lighting and color to match original

2. The wall texture is perfect as it is, but the original has an additional texture that could be moss, so it might be a good idea to add that in

3. The ground texture should be changed, compared to the wall it is noticeably lower quality. Looks like it's been vertically squashed to create the angle, instead of natively created at that angle.

4. The skeletons/bones, in particular the one chained to the wall, should be edited to fit in more with the background, at the moment it stands out too much.

Also keep in mind the stage only reaches this height of the wall:
glref2.png


That's about all I have to say on it, again you have definitely done a great job on it, but it would benefit a lot from these changes IMO.

Something else I'd like to say on general stage creation, is that I feel it's important not to assume that every element of the original designs was simply a product of limitations. Artistic interpretation can be great but it needs to be restrained IMO, I think respect for those original designs is more important. I'll say a bit on the Palace Gates next.
 
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thanks for the crits, jarvis653.

The stage was inspired in MK1/MK4 (classic looks)
I made the stage inside a 3D Game Engine (Unity3D) so the light come from light physics simulation me made it more realistic.
The floor is a texture in a mesh so maybe the texture need a higher resolution.

The illumination in the Arcade version is very confused, the floor looks green and the far gates with the yellow eyes in black, in the original stage the colors don't match well.

if we see this on MK4, that is pretty much like MK1 but with a realistic illumination. In MK9 all change so im not counting MK9 style.

I think if we try to make the stage 100% like the arcade version, it will looks pretty bad, colors not match well and all is unrealistic.

We have i high quality character now with a lot of details, we have to try to match all with the same level.

I think that my stage is a darker that the arcade version but it make it more interesting.


I think see if i can do some changes now, i have the stage in Photoshop so i have to remake all again.
 
badmouse said:
thanks for the crits, jarvis653.

The stage was inspired in MK1/MK4 (classic looks)
I made the stage inside a 3D Game Engine (Unity3D) so the light come from light physics simulation me made it more realistic.
The floor is a texture in a mesh so maybe the texture need a higher resolution.

The illumination in the Arcade version is very confused, the floor looks green and the far gates with the yellow eyes in black, in the original stage the colors don't match well.

if we see this on MK4, that is pretty much like MK1 but with a realistic illumination. In MK9 all change so im not counting MK9 style.

I think if we try to make the stage 100% like the arcade version, it will looks pretty bad, colors not match well and all is unrealistic.

We have i high quality character now with a lot of details, we have to try to match all with the same level.

I think that my stage is a darker that the arcade version but it make it more interesting.


I think see if i can do some changes now, i have the stage in Photoshop so i have to remake all again.
Click to expand...

I can see it from your point of view, but at the same time I think the subjective opinion of the colors not matching is less important than matching the MK1 style. That should be the goal really, not whether we like or dislike the original colors, because some people will and others won't, but in the end it's only the degree of resemblance that matters. Personally I think they're fine though, and I'd love to see them imitated in your version.

As for the lighting, the original's simply looks like a gradual change from light to dark from the top to bottom of the wall, and for the ground it's from light to dark as it enters the inner lairs. I think it could look just as good, and would be a true version of MK1. Like the characters you mentioned being made high quality and with a lot of details, despite that they still look almost exactly like the original, so if they're to be matching then the stages should have both of those qualities too.
 
jarvis653 said:
So I thought I'd give some crit on the recent stage work being done. Firstly badmouse's goro's lair:



I did download the high res one, but it's disappeared now from this thread so this one will have to do for the post.
Anyway so you've done a great job badmouse, however there are things I feel need to be changed about it. The most important one is tone and lighting. This Goro's Lair reminds me more of the MK9 remake, which I consider a modernization. The original Lair is quite different:

glref1.png


The light source is not flames, but is actually coming from the top of the screen, which I assume is moonlight. This creates a very different feel compared to your version. The changes I'd like to see made:

1. Remove flames, change lighting and color to match original

2. The wall texture is perfect as it is, but the original has an additional texture that could be moss, so it might be a good idea to add that in

3. The ground texture should be changed, compared to the wall it is noticeably lower quality. Looks like it's been vertically squashed to create the angle, instead of natively created at that angle.

4. The skeletons/bones, in particular the one chained to the wall, should be edited to fit in more with the background, at the moment it stands out too much.

Also keep in mind the stage only reaches this height of the wall:
glref2.png


That's about all I have to say on it, again you have definitely done a great job on it, but it would benefit a lot from these changes IMO.

Something else I'd like to say on general stage creation, is that I feel it's important not to assume that every element of the original designs was simply a product of limitations. Artistic interpretation can be great but it needs to be restrained IMO, I think respect for those original designs is more important. I'll say a bit on the Palace Gates next.
Click to expand...


Hey, i think you're too strict. Just TOOO much. Badmouse'd Goro's Lair looks VERY impressive, much better than the original. The thing is, that in original there was an ABSOLUTELY flat lighting, some objects looked primitive. For 1992 it was good enough, but if we want to make the game look REALLY cool, we must pay attention to this. It would look just ridiculous if we create full HD objects with good textures, but with the original flat lighting (no lighting effect at all). In badmouse's Goro's Lair, there's well seen where the light goes from - these fires. In original we just see the lair good lighted, as there's no front wall (where the observer/player stands) at all.
Badmouse just wants it all to look more realistic, and he makes incredible results. And his Goro's Lair looks much more MK1 than MK9. So, I raise my both hands for leaving Goro's Lair in badmouse's edition.
 
I agree with Sub-Zera. Badmouse's Goros Lair stage looks a lot better and fits perfectly for an HD version. The lighting has been changed but it works and you can instantly tell the stage is from mk1. A few liberties can be taken as long as it doesnt deviate too far from the original.
 
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hey bleed, i checked in slow motion your jump forward animation, if you see the front arm, in the opposite side of the elbow, this part change the size. i think is a problem of the rigging.
 
Whoa, that's weird....

You know what though, I was having a similar problem with the Vest. The shoulder area was getting all twisted when he reached about the same position.

For some reason spinning the model like that is messing up the skinning, I"m not sure why just yet.
 
Sub-Zera said:
Hey, i think you're too strict. Just TOOO much. Badmouse'd Goro's Lair looks VERY impressive, much better than the original. The thing is, that in original there was an ABSOLUTELY flat lighting, some objects looked primitive. For 1992 it was good enough, but if we want to make the game look REALLY cool, we must pay attention to this. It would look just ridiculous if we create full HD objects with good textures, but with the original flat lighting (no lighting effect at all). In badmouse's Goro's Lair, there's well seen where the light goes from - these fires. In original we just see the lair good lighted, as there's no front wall (where the observer/player stands) at all.
Badmouse just wants it all to look more realistic, and he makes incredible results. And his Goro's Lair looks much more MK1 than MK9. So, I raise my both hands for leaving Goro's Lair in badmouse's edition.
Click to expand...

I don't know what you mean by too strict...I was just offering my opinion, I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. Anyway the original is not flat, there is definitely lighting except it's coming from the top, which I'm interpreting as moonlight. It could be made a bit more obvious in our version as well, and I see no reason to assume that it would look bad without even a test. We have plenty of time to experiment too, Bleed is still on the first character so there is no point in rushing the stages or anything else. We are only making this once so I think we should take our time and make sure that it's the best it can be. And I agree badmouse's work is impressive, but again I feel there's things that can be improved. That's all really.

Anyway I won't keep talking about it, it's badmouse's choice of course and if he is 100% satisfied with the lighting then I won't push for a change. I'd rather people keep happy and keep working rather than dealing with big dents in their progress.
 
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I like the lair, but the skeleton needs to be in the same position as the original.

Not sure what I think of the fire... it looks good but isn't true to MK1.
 
Bleed, is not necessary have a perfect rig, you can duplicate the model in this position, delete the bones and rotate it like a single object. after is just 1 frame rotated, or in your case, with good lighting reflections :)
 
I just thought of something else...
Consider how the current lighting would affect the characters too. We already ran into problems with functionality with the Pit, thus why the bridge had to be remade to keep consistent lighting since the moon is in fixed position. The current lighting of the Lair is very dark, and since this is not a 3D engine, the characters to remain realistic would probably need another sprite set - already two are needed, one for day stages and one for moonlit stages. This could need yet another, and with so much lighting variation in the stage I'm not sure if it'd turn out convincing anyway. Therefore, if the stage was moonlit instead, we could use the moonlit sprites that would also be used in the Pit and the Warrior Shrine. Just some food for thought.
 
jarvis653 said:
I just thought of something else...
Consider how the current lighting would affect the characters too. We already ran into problems with functionality with the Pit, thus why the bridge had to be remade to keep consistent lighting since the moon is in fixed position. The current lighting of the Lair is very dark, and since this is not a 3D engine, the characters to remain realistic would probably need another sprite set - already two are needed, one for day stages and one for moonlit stages. This could need yet another, and with so much lighting variation in the stage I'm not sure if it'd turn out convincing anyway. Therefore, if the stage was moonlit instead, we could use the moonlit sprites that would also be used in the Pit and the Warrior Shrine. Just some food for thought.
Click to expand...

You're absolutely right about this. Would be nice if Badmouse tries to add some white-blue smooth light spots from the above, like the Lair has holes on the cieling and moonlight passes through.
 
Sub-Zera said:
You're absolutely right about this. Would be nice if Badmouse tries to add some white-blue smooth light spots from the above, like the Lair has holes on the cieling and moonlight passes through.
Click to expand...

I meant use moonlight to replace the fire for the light source, like I explained previously. It all comes down to 2 options:

1. Keep fire and make another spriteset for the different character lighting
2. Replace fire with moonlight from above and use same spriteset as Pit and Warrior Shrine

I prefer option 2, because that way the stage will keep the original tone, and we don't need to bother with another spriteset for just one stage. With the issue that Interloko brought up about optimization, I think the less sprites the better.
 
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