Doubting Smoke's competence on a competitive level, is he trash?

nuth1nmuch

nuth1nmuch

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I am becoming skeptical of how good Smoke is, I've been around the forums, I've seen thethirteenthorder's thread on his adv/disadvantages and combos, but I am starting to doubt him overall as a competitive character. I feel the same with scorpion, and it is not just because they are overused.

His wake-up options aren't that bad, but they are easily punishable and predictable. His combos do decent damage, but his lack of mix-ups leave them very avoidable.

Smoke's neutral 3 does not even hit low, his overhead follow up after landing teleports only have one alternative, his sweep. (check our aris's smoke in ReveLAtions vids if you don't know what this is)

aedanwolfe encouraged me to share my thoughts on how terrible I actually think he is, I hope we can discuss what should be done, otherwise whether or not should he be left alone.

Some examples:
Aedanwolfe explained that one simple hotfix/change for a character could possibly make them OP. I argue, why not give them the buff and set up a duration to see what happens with it, like Kano's upball, if its too much, mend it towards what it used to be.

DCP had a thread on how to not be a scrub, he heavily advises to stay away from Scorpion since he is hopeless on a competitive level because everyone knows how to beat him and figure the user out. (overused? Am I making a similar mistake with Smoke because I fight him so often?)
 
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should turn into a interesting thread :)

i cant say upball is the perfect example, mainly because nobody ever wanted the upball buff. its a punish/anti air/combo ender still, just as it was before.

I also think scorpions competitiveness will ultimately be decided not on his specials (which all around are pretty good) but his normals/combo strings, which i think may be where he is lacking.

as for the main topic tho. im sure to a extent people suffer from the "we have played against him a thousand times already" and thus people are learning his tactics a bit more then say vs a shang tsung of quan chi.

I say lets look at his pros right now.

-he does very good damage (40% meterless is possible midscreen i do believe, correct me if im wrong tho).

-he is extremely fast

-he is one of the best anti zoners in the game

now lets look at his specials

-he has invisibility, and it breaks my heart to not see it used more often as its a great mindgame tool

-his smokebomb is fast (tho can be dashed) and MUST be blocked on wakeup, so if your at range it can negate most wakeup options, a landed smokebomb nets smoke a combo, and it builds meter fairly quickly

-i believe his teleport is the fastest in the game

-shake=great anti projectile, apparently EX counters most normals too

-smoke towards/away i think are worse then people think, some reason people dont seem to know that you can use your non projectile moves to hit him (tho i believe ex goes thru normals as well) and in the corner is a great mindgame tool as it looks like a tele.

disadvantages

-no low strings

I think he suffers from too many people not using him to his full potential. I think atm he is one of the best punishers in the game because he can punish both rush and zoning. while ermacs punishing is a bit easier it all revolves around forcelift.

one form of low string i MIGHT concede to is similar to noob saibots that the string ends in a low that cannot be canceled/juggled into or out of. it also gives little to no advantage.

why i think it would be unbalanced for him to have a low starter. are his pros above.

hes already a great punisher/antizoner with high damage and hes fast. if you gave him a low starter he would be everything in this game sept zoning himself since smokebomb isnt really zoning imo. I think having a great punisher/antizoner/RUSHER with high damage and speed might be unbalanced. youd probably need to lower his higher midscreen bnb's by like 5% and slow him down slightly (and i do mean slightly, not a lot). but this is my opinion on the nature of balance as it pertains to this character, so take it for what you will :)

honestly ive been thinking of picking ups moke again just because i love how he pairs with noob saibot in tag, especially now that noobs blackhole has a use.
 
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Weird Traveler said:
Is anybody in this game really 'trash'?
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trash may be a strong word. but the more balanced any game is, the closer people look at it for discrepencies. Thus terms like "trash" are dependant on the subject matter. if a game was PERFECTLY balanced except one char was slightly worse then people would call that char trash as well.
 
aedanwolfe said:
should turn into a interesting thread :)

i cant say upball is the perfect example, mainly because nobody ever wanted the upball buff. its a punish/anti air/combo ender still, just as it was before.

I also think scorpions competitiveness will ultimately be decided not on his specials (which all around are pretty good) but his normals/combo strings, which i think may be where he is lacking.

as for the main topic tho. im sure to a extent people suffer from the "we have played against him a thousand times already" and thus people are learning his tactics a bit more then say vs a shang tsung of quan chi.

I say lets look at his pros right now.

-he does very good damage (40% meterless is possible midscreen i do believe, correct me if im wrong tho).

-he is extremely fast

-he is one of the best anti zoners in the game

now lets look at his specials

-he has invisibility, and it breaks my heart to not see it used more often as its a great mindgame tool

-his smokebomb is fast (tho can be dashed) and MUST be blocked on wakeup, so if your at range it can negate most wakeup options, a landed smokebomb nets smoke a combo, and it builds meter fairly quickly

-i believe his teleport is the fastest in the game

-shake=great anti projectile, apparently EX counters most normals too

-smoke towards/away i think are worse then people think, some reason people dont seem to know that you can use your non projectile moves to hit him (tho i believe ex goes thru normals as well) and in the corner is a great mindgame tool as it looks like a tele.

disadvantages

-no low strings

I think he suffers from too many people not using him to his full potential. I think atm he is one of the best punishers in the game because he can punish both rush and zoning. while ermacs punishing is a bit easier it all revolves around forcelift.

one form of low string i MIGHT concede to is similar to noob saibots that the string ends in a low that cannot be canceled/juggled into or out of. it also gives little to no advantage.

why i think it would be unbalanced for him to have a low starter. are his pros above.

hes already a great punisher/antizoner with high damage and hes fast. if you gave him a low starter he would be everything in this game sept zoning himself since smokebomb isnt really zoning imo. I think having a great punisher/antizoner/RUSHER with high damage and speed might be unbalanced. youd probably need to lower his higher midscreen bnb's by like 5% and slow him down slightly (and i do mean slightly, not a lot). but this is my opinion on the nature of balance as it pertains to this character, so take it for what you will :)

honestly ive been thinking of picking ups moke again just because i love how he pairs with noob saibot in tag, especially now that noobs blackhole has a use.
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So, should he be leaved as he already is? Do you suggest that maybe if some of his pros were lessened, could he gain something more "practical," or useful in return? Are you sure Smoke has 1 disadvantage?
 
I don't think he's great, but he's far from trash. I think aedanwolfe hit the nail on the head; most people don't use him to his full potential. I've seen people kick ass with him, but most of the time people just try to catch you with Smoke Bombs or teleports.
 
I agree with everything aedon said.

He has a lot of things going for him, but no one utilizes it at all... They just spam smoke bomb then either teleport or smoke towards-->grab
 
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its the only real disadvantage i can think of honestly. unless you want to say things like near nonexsistance zoning /shrug.

maybe someone else can provide more options for disadvantages/weaknesses.

maybe if he did like 35% on his best meterless bnb's and had invisibility scrapped (invisibility with low/overhead juggle starters would be insane imo) then a low hit starter would probably be fine.

But keep in mind that is my opinion, a opinion from a player on balance isnt always best.
 
aedanwolfe said:
its the only real disadvantage i can think of honestly. unless you want to say things like near nonexsistance zoning /shrug.

maybe someone else can provide more options for disadvantages/weaknesses.

maybe if he did like 35% on his best meterless bnb's and had invisibility scrapped (invisibility with low/overhead juggle starters would be insane imo) then a low hit starter would probably be fine.

But keep in mind that is my opinion, a opinion from a player on balance isnt always best.
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This isn't a specific disadvantages as such, but I've found that certain scenarios leave him in a highly disadvantages situation. I've yet to see a way for Smoke to win a match in which his opponent plays more patiently than he does. Turtling and waiting Smoke to make the first move has seemed nothing short of crippling to me. Smoke has some very solid upside but I've hit some smart Smoke players pretty hard just by hanging back and making Smoke work. Smoke cannot make me move from full-screen if I don't want to. Smoke Toward me and I can just sweep him out of it. EX Smoke Toward and I'll jump over him or cross him up. Teleport and I'll punish with a full combo. Smoke Bomb and I'll sit there and let you build meter that you can't use. His strings can all be blocked high and though his sweep is quite fast, it's not enough to make me worry about his up-close game.

If I get a life lead on Smoke and decide to play a patient game then he has to work very hard to uproot me. It's not suddenly impossible for Smoke to win, it's just much harder against a good player. It may not be fast-paced, frenzied fun but if the name of the game is winning then it's not out of bounds.
 
Eks said:
I don't think he's great, but he's far from trash. I think aedanwolfe hit the nail on the head; most people don't use him to his full potential. I've seen people kick ass with him, but most of the time people just try to catch you with Smoke Bombs or teleports.
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So its only the players that give Smoke a scrub reputation. I fought over 100 smoke players on and offline, I guess none of them use him to his potential. Sorry for my misunderstanding, I think I really overlooked how good he could be, I thank all of you for putting a halt on my doubts.

No offense, I've yet to find a Smoke user that really does put his moveset to its full potential (including invisibilty), not even in this forum, is it fair to say that none of you are actually good with him? I'm open to add someone that can prove me wrong.
 
3mag5num7 said:
This isn't a specific disadvantages as such, but I've found that certain scenarios leave him in a highly disadvantages situation. I've yet to see a way for Smoke to win a match in which his opponent plays more patiently than he does. Turtling and waiting Smoke to make the first move has seemed nothing short of crippling to me. Smoke has some very solid upside but I've hit some smart Smoke players pretty hard just by hanging back and making Smoke work. Smoke cannot make me move from full-screen if I don't want to. Smoke Toward me and I can just sweep him out of it. EX Smoke Toward and I'll jump over him or cross him up. Teleport and I'll punish with a full combo. Smoke Bomb and I'll sit there and let you build meter that you can't use. His strings can all be blocked high and though his sweep is quite fast, it's not enough to make me worry about his up-close game.

If I get a life lead on Smoke and decide to play a patient game then he has to work very hard to uproot me. It's not suddenly impossible for Smoke to win, it's just much harder against a good player. It may not be fast-paced, frenzied fun but if the name of the game is winning then it's not out of bounds.
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Your really found the words for me, you see it the same way as I do, especially on your closing sentences. That is exactly why I'm am very concerned with his competence on a competetive level. How difficult would it be for a smoke player to reel a win against an amazing player?
 
i personally think thirteenhorder is a damn good smoke player :)

tho he beat me so badly he never had to use invisibility.

also apparently on the startup frames of invisibility it has projectile immunity, only a few frames but its there. hard to time
 
The reason why Smoke doesn't have a low starter is the same reason why Sub-Zero and Nightwolf don't either: they already have fantastic tools overall, a low starter would make them seriously op, even though I personally consider Smoke lower than Sub-Zero and Nightwolf as for tier-lists go on (opinion ONLY). Imagine a low starter with Smoke's invisibility = INSANE. It'd be seriously overused.

Though I do consider Smoke "stronger" than Scorpion, Smoke still has a lot going on for him. His teleport is fast and his enhanced teleport even better, though it's easily punished. His shake is great and I don't understand why Smoke players don't use it more often, it's same watching a Nightwolf fight and not seeing reflector or absorb used correctly. Smoke's bomb is great for building meter and potential for combo starter. Overall, I don't consider Smoke weak at all and I still find it more unpredictable than Scorpion...
 
nuth1nmuch said:
Your really found the words for me, you see it the same way as I do, especially on your closing sentences. That is exactly why I'm am very concerned with his competence on a competetive level. How difficult would it be for a smoke player to reel a win against an amazing player?
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its the same answer as how johnny cage deals with zoning. lowtech

tech grabs, sweeps, low pokes, etc. it is def more difficult for smoke, just like other chars have different areas where its much more difficult. again thinking of johnny cage vs rushdown. or ermac vs anyone with a decent ranged punish like reptile.
 
nuth1nmuch said:
Your really found the words for me, you see it the same way as I do, especially on your closing sentences. That is exactly why I'm am very concerned with his competence on a competetive level. How difficult would it be for a smoke player to reel a win against an amazing player?
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From my experience, not impossible at all. If Smoke can be aggressive early and get himself a life lead, he can then run away and he is a b---h and a half to chase down lol. His Invisibility has projectile armor on the start-up animation, his Shake punishes every single projectile in the game with the one exception of Smoke Bomb lol. His EX Shake also punishes high and mid hits, though sweeps and low strikes still connect. Smoke Away/Toward builds meter, can create or close distance, and goes through projectiles (as well as high and mid hits with the EX version). Smoke Bomb makes them block or risk a full combo. Jumping to avoid the Smoke Bomb is at risk of eating a quick teleport.

Losing a life lead to Smoke can be very, very dangerous. I've found the fighting him is really about who can get momentum first.
 
Most of everything is apparently more difficult for Smoke, with your opponent predicting most of everything you'll do next.

ermac and tsung can punish with strings that only inolve their special moves, you can't break levitation and force push afterwards, you can't break a string of enanced skulls from below, they both punish a lot better than Smoke can when the opponent has breaker. Unless he xray's right after cloud.
 
i feel that kung lao is in the same boat great tools good anti air but all u get is spin ,212 or the teleport and grab or kick and the hat throws or that damn air kick that can be done an inch from the ground multiple times.

any one see this to.
 
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nuth1nmuch said:
Most of everything is apparently more difficult for Smoke, with your opponent predicting most of everything you'll do next.

ermac and tsung can punish with strings that only inolve their special moves, you can't break levitation and force push afterwards, you can't break a string of enanced skulls from below, they both punish a lot better than Smoke can when the opponent has breaker. Unless he xray's right after cloud.
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smoke isnt THAT predictable, predictability is largely up to the players choices. lets not be quite that pessimistic now. everything is not harder for smoke. magnum summed up smokes main difficulty nicely.

yes shang can punish better because of the fact that it cant be breakered, it also requires meter EVERY time and he isnt as good at punishing zoning.

yes ermac is a very good punisher its also entirely based around forcelift and can be completly neutralized and usually punished by dashblock>fast/ranged special.

a important thing to do is when you list how x is better then y, make sure you list how x is also worse then y otherwise you end up with a grass is greener mentality.

edit: i want you "and anyone really" to try some matches without hte goal of winning, dont do any specails. just do low pokes, fast trap strings, and things like tech grabs and in smokes case JiK>air throw.

you would be AMAZED at how much damage you can get in just by mixing up these simple tactics, and furthermore how when encorperated into your main game how devestating you suddenly become even without a low hit string.
 
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