Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

Vulcan Hades

New member
What is Frame Data

character_demo.gif


Here's the gist of it:

Start up/Execution frames = Speed of the attack
Active frames = Duration of the attack
Recovery frames = Cool down before you can move, attack or block again
Stun frames = Duration in which you cannot move or respond (but you can still block in MK9 unless it's a chain)

All attacks inflict hitstun / blockstun which leave you either at +frames or at -frames. And players with frame advantage can attack/respond sooner.

ex: An attack that leaves you at -7 disadvantage on block can be punished by Kung Lao's Spin (which has 6 start up).

That's really all you need to understand for starters. But here's a video that explains it all more clearly:


Make sure to check the next part too. The guy is talking about SSF4, but frame data is a universal thing for all fighting games.

On a side note, hitstun isn't exactly the same for SF and MK9. In MK9 some attacks inflict a stagger state in which you cannot move, jump or respond, but you can still instantly block. This is why you cannot combo a D1 into another D1 like in SF even though you have enough +frame advantage.


What frame data can be used for

-knowing what is punishable on block
-designing frame traps*
-figuring out what pokes to use in footsies*
-finding out the best blockstrings* for your character
-finding block infinites* and jail strings*
-knowing your best tools to space out rushdown or create space
-knowing what meaty attacks* are better

I will probably go over those terms in another post...


Calculating Frame Data

Now for people interested and wanna try calculating frame data by themselves, these are the various calculation methods currently used:

Execution Frames Calculation Method:

Record at 60 frames per second
Sprint said:
1. First frame: The frame where the limb glows red, or the frame before the button press is displayed.
2. First active frame: The frame before the damage display appears, or the frame where the opponent starts to recoil.
3. First cancelled frame: The first frame of a special move when cancelled into, identified by the red limb. Can also be located by finding the frame on which the special hits and subtracting its startup.

Startup = First active frame - First frame
Execution = Startup + 1
Cancelled duration = First cancelled frame - First frame
Duration = First fully recovered frame - First frame


Advantage on hit/on block Calculation Method:

Method 1: The Jump Method:

Sprint said:
Frame advantage: Hold up with both players and measure the difference between the jumping animations. In my case I controlled P2 with my feet to speed things up, but if you want you can pause the moment an attack hits and start holding up on both controllers during the pause menu.

You attack the CPU dummy then when he's in hitstun/blockstun you set AI settings to "no block" and "jump". Then hold up. Both characters will start jumping as soon as they have recovered, but sometimes the CPU won't jump right away, which is why ideally you want to test it a few times to make sure the CPU jumps on the earliest of frames. It's also much easier if you have someone on human holding up for you the whole time (or do it yourself with another controller).

You do it twice for each attack (one for adv. on hit and one for adv. on block) and you record it at 60 frames per second. Then all you need to do is play back frame by frame and calculate the difference. For example, if my character starts jumping 5 frames earlier than my opponent on block, then that means the attack is +5 on block. You can start measuring frames on the start of the jump, on the peak of the jump, or when they land. It doesn't really matter, all you need to know is the difference in frames.

Why the jump method? Because in theory when you recover from stun as soon as you can jump you can also attack. So this gives you a pretty decent estimate of frame advantage. Though it's not 100% accurate (1-2f margin of error).

Important things to note:
Sprint said:
There appears to be a 1 frame transition between crouching and standing that I overlooked.

Kitana's d+1 is -1 on hit.
According to the jump method it's -2 (apparently the "animation fluff" made you misidentify it)


Method 2: DrDogg's way:

DrDogg said:
What I will be doing to test hit/block frame data (as soon as I find my PS3 component cable, or buy another one -_-) is to get execution data for all characters first, then perform an attack and see if it can be punished by the fastest attack in the game (Raiden's Superman, I believe). If it can't be punished, I then look for an attack that is one frame slower than Kitana's fastest move. I perform the move I'm testing, then mash Kitana's fastest attack and the selected attack to see which one wins. If the other attack wins, I move to an attack that is one frame slower and test again. I continue this process until I find an attack that Kitana beats, then add 1 frame to make up for the no trade issue. Does that make sense?
As you can see he uses a more complicated calculation method but this gives him more accurate numbers than the jump method.

Here's some moves you can use for this method:

-Sub Zero's D,B,1 (2 start up)
-Kung Lao's D,F,1, Reptile's B,F,2 or Kitana's D1 (6 start up)
-Johnny Cage's uppercut or Kung Lao's D1 (7 start up)
-Raiden's B,F,3 (8 start up)
-Johnny Cage's D,B,3 (9 start up)
-Throw or Nightwolf's F,F,4 (10 start up)*
-Reptile's 2 or Kabal's uppercut (11 start up) *
-Reptile's B,F,4 or Kabal's D4 (12 start up)
-Kenshi's 3 or Scorpion's B,B,1 (13 start up)
-Kenshi's D,B,1 (14 start up)


Hope this will encourage more people to test with their own characters and get their own frame data out. :)


Frame Data project on TYM: http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?4950-MK9-Frame-Data-Project
 
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FlawlessVictor

New member
When the frame is between startup and active (half red and green according to the diagram), does it register as it hit or does it have to be fully active (all red) to be considered as a hit?
 

Eks

Well-known member
That first pic is great and anyone who doesn't like this thread should retire from MK and fighting games immediately.
 

Vulcan Hades

New member
When the frame is between startup and active (half red and green according to the diagram), does it register as it hit or does it have to be fully active (all red) to be considered as a hit?
A move with "6 start up" means the hitbox starts being active on the 6th frame. I suggest you watch the first video I posted, VesperArcade does a great job explaining it. :)

btw that first pic was just an illustration someone made to explain frames more easily (it's also fake btw). But yes, it's fully active as soon as the hitbox appears (problem is you can't see hitboxes ingame).
 
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Jinko

'Strayan Moderator
While this thread is in the correct place, I feel it deserves to be in the Gameplay Forum. It will be moved there and be stickied.

This is a great thread for amateurs preparing to play competitively. Hats off to you.
 

B13-Helghast

New member
Yup + rep for the effort man, now I can make my buddies at home clear that it really exists and that I can not see into the future and counter their attacks with faster ones, like they often accuse me of, lol I know frame data stuff but you explain it very easy though.
 

FlawlessVictor

New member
A move with "6 start up" means the hitbox starts being active on the 6th frame. I suggest you watch the first video I posted, VesperArcade does a great job explaining it. :)

btw that first pic was just an illustration someone made to explain frames more easily (it's also fake btw). But yes, it's fully active as soon as the hitbox appears (problem is you can't see hitboxes ingame).

I see. Thanks for the clarification.
 

AMES32

God of War Fanboy
this thread isn't going to be viable for vary long the frame data changes depending on when u release the block button or if u press the down button so i don't think this is good but i hope u can get the frame data but from this game but idk if u can.

but i hope it work's out for the frame data tho it would help alot
 
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rinc-e

New member
Good Stuff man!

Haven't read/watched all of it yet (will do tomorrow), but there are some good/complete Frame Data listups in the char forums @TYM, for the most used chars yet (except smoke).

also correct me if I'm wrong ..but those lists are not valid online (since the game runs slower duo connection/input lag).
 

aedanwolfe

New member
this thread isn't going to be viable for vary long the frame data changes depending on when u release the block button or if u press the down button so i don't think this is good but i hope u can get the frame data but from this game but idk if u can.

read the main post man :), the OP touches on that already. unless im reading you wrong. either way we can get startup frames of each characters main attacks which is still pretty good.
 

aedanwolfe

New member
Good Stuff man!

Haven't read/watched all of it yet (will do tomorrow), but there are some good/complete Frame Data listups in the char forums @TYM, for the most used chars yet (except smoke).

also correct me if I'm wrong ..but those lists are not valid online (since the game runs slower duo connection/input lag).

well the frames would be the same, just the input delay between you inputting the buttons and them happenign would be different. theoretically it should all work out hte same since your just adding a static number of "frames" (ie lag) to everything you input...its supposed to even out.
 

rinc-e

New member
well the frames would be the same, just the input delay between you inputting the buttons and them happenign would be different. theoretically it should all work out hte same since your just adding a static number of "frames" (ie lag) to everything you input...its supposed to even out.

ok.. but I've read or heard somewhere that the game offline runs at 60fps and online at ~30fps ..?
 

navi24

New member
best thread ever? i think so +rep to you!

exactly this^^. this is the most usefull thread on this site or for any fighting game site. its funny cause i learned how to read frames from SSF4, but ill definitely check it out in case i missed anything from b4. thnx alot +++++++ rep to u.

why do fighting games dont include frame data on practice mode, i dont undersantd. damage,location, hits ect its great but frame data its the most essential part of training mode for any fighting game.
 
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yautjared

New member
very interesting, useful, pratical and good information here. Frame data knowledge is a very, very important part of fighting games, and, apply this currently in the gameplay, when knowing this, you are able to refine A LOT your attack and defense strategies, knowing about your best and worse moves your favourite character has.

+rep
 
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