Results 1 to 6 of 6

Thread: Fatal Blow: Too Frequent?

  1. #1
    Tarkatan Warrior DeBane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Age
    50
    Posts
    350
    Thanked: 32
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)

    Fatal Blow: Too Frequent?

    I've been watching some of the "stress tests", and I counted three(3) Fatal Blows (FB) in a single minute of play, and perhaps an average of one(1) per minute for a 20-minute duration of stream ogling.

    Now, I know they're only a one-per-match comeback clutch crutch mechanic, and that their damage is canned to 30~35% (and likely scaled to nothing when used as a combo "ender"). However, I've noticed them being OTG'd, a lot -- a pet peeve of mine with MKX's armoured X-Rays -- with the offshoot being that, the player without the FB tends to instinctively back away once the opponent's "LB+RB" indicator starts flashing (*was this insulting indicator really necessary?... MK11 has no Samshow inputs for the FB's... I hope it can be toggled OFF ) and the rounds then almost always devolved into projectile spams at full-screen and / or YOLO teleport attacks.

    What makes this worse, is that, because of how the mechanic works (activated at 30% remaining HP), the most critical stage in the bout ends up losing most of its "hype", because of the negative play that the threat of being FB'd imbues. So-called "footsies" (*admittedly, I've been seeing less of this kind of gameplay since they sped the game up -- more pokes and hit-confirms into rote combo chains, seem to be the order of the day now) get 'defenstrated', and the game turns into a predictable waiting game -- something that's not fun to play; much less, to watch.

    So, here are my concerns, in point form:
    • That these "super move" abilities will, instead of being eschewed entirely, like in MKX and IJ2 (the very subtext for NRS making the changes they did), will now be seen in literally every match... twice, even -- by both combatants; and given they're canned, non-interactive, mini cuts-scenes, once one has seen them a few times, they become a literal eyesore, as well as breaking up the flow of the game

    • That, being as no-brainer to execute as they are, they'll inevitably be abused online -- e.g., in OTG situations -- diminishing the online experience

    • The leading player will be encouraged to stand back and let the FB active player come at them, and then to spam from afar -- which may have the offshoot or imbuing projectile-based chars. with a huge advantage, whenever leading an FB active opponent (and I doubt anyone wants another IJ2 situation, when it comes to projectiles)

    • FB's recharge too quickly upon a failed attempt

    • Given many FB's seemingly have slow start-ups, they'll mostly be YOLO'd or used for their armour properties -- further exacerbating the same-y-ness of the their application

    • The sum total of the above effects render the abilities unsatisfying to, not only watch, but, also to perform -- certainly not what NRS (or anyone) wants


    Here's what I'd like to see done to the FB's, in order to make them, frankly, better:
    • Lower the HP activation threshold to 15% remaining HP -- i.e., turn them into a true "desperation" attack (*even SNK "despos" could be used repeatedly -- FB's can only be landed once, which means they are, in effect, or should be, true "desperation" moves)

    • Tie FB's to full attack meter (as well as low HP) and, to compensate, increase their damage to 40~50% (*char. dependant)

    • Tie FB's to full defensive meter too (as well as low HP) and, to compensate, increase the damage of FB's used with both meters to 50~60% (*char. dependant)

    • Increase recovery on the FB's, such that a blocked or wiffed FB = guaranteed punish -- even for the slowest character / player

    • Suffice to say, all meters are drained up each FB attempt -- successful or failed

    • Given meters already do not recharge universally across all chars. and / or all meter-dependent abilities, tweak meters in accordance with the power of a given character's FB -- examples: if Sonya's FB does the least damage, her meter recharges the fastest; if Shao Kahn's is most powerful, slow his meter regen down to a comparative crawl -- thereby, more individualising the FB's, instead of most chars. feeling cookie-cutter--in this respect

    • Seeing as certain chars. have some kind of buff tied to FB use (e.g., Jax gets his "molten fists" after a successful FB), give chars. without such specific perks, faster meter regen for a landed FB, than for a wiffed / blocked FB -- kind of simulating "spirit" or "adrenaline", and also promoting more prudent use of these powerful abilities


    I think implementing some of these ideas would, if nothing else, make the FB's more strategic and individualised tools (rather than just a crutch to throw out whenever one is being beat) and -- arguably most importantly -- more enjoyable to use and also witness.

    For if I'm getting bored of these "supers" this early in the piece (and without actually having even played the game myself), there must be something awry with how NRS have designed them for MK11. The obvious explanation is that they still only provide a solitary FB per character -- which is something that cannot be easily addressed, and definitely not a month out from a game's release.

    I've played fighting games for decades and, although all games are repetitive at their core, there is something distinctly "cinematic experience-y" with these rather 'detached' abilities; and to now be forced to see them all the time, versus hardly ever, is not a good trade off from what we've had before -- almost certainly worse for the medium-to-long-term longevity of the game.

    Tekken 7 has the near-exact same system with its "Rage Arts", and a cursory glance at any T7 forum will immediately find many complaints relating to said "casual crutch". I hope NRS do not make this same mistake with MK11...
    Last edited by DeBane; 03-29-2019 at 08:39 AM.

  2. #2
    Tarkatan Warrior MKLegion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    414
    PSN
    mkawesome14
    Steam
    MKLegacyx
    Thanked: 139
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Re: Fatal Blow: Too Frequent?

    Interesting read, while I am glad they made supers more like Rage arts as it seems like we might actually see them be used in comp. unlike X-rays, I do agree that they should feel more like a desperation move (which on paper seems to be what the devs intended them to be given there tied to low health instead of full meter). They could benefit from longer cooldowns in order to encourage the attacker to use it wisely, and make the defender less paranoid of it coming back too soon.

    On one of the last kasts they did say they were looking into making fatal blows less safe on block, so it does seem like they are tweaking the balance of them a bit to not be as get-out-of-jail free cardy, I think this is gonna be one of those things that are gonna have to wait to launch to fully evaluate, not that voicing our concerns now isn't valid, that's mostly the point of this beta. Though have to admit, seeing Sonicfox land a 67% combo with Kabal after linking in a FB was pretty hype.
    Long Live Mortal Kombat!!!




  3. #3
    Tarkatan Warrior DeBane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Age
    50
    Posts
    350
    Thanked: 32
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)

    Re: Fatal Blow: Too Frequent?

    Quote Originally Posted by MKLegion View Post
    I am glad they made supers more like Rage arts
    'Cept that "Rage Arts" have unique input commands, making them more interesting to use, if nothing else; and I think you'll find most disliked the addition of RA's in Tekken 7 -- and still do, because they're blatant casual crutches that are used far too frequently in practice.

    as it seems like we might actually see them be used in comp.
    Which is what they indeed wanted -- Boon said as much. However, if they end up being MK11's "Clashes", they cannot be seen as anything other than a bad [re-]design move. At least when "X-Rays" weren't used, they were simply 'neutral', or benign--in their effective non-existence. But, if "Fatal Blows" are all but guaranteed (x2) every match, people will get bored of seeing the same 10~15-second mini cut-scene after about the tenth viewing... That is, if they're not already bored of them (as I kind of am).

    On one of the last kasts they did say they were looking into making fatal blows less safe on block
    I heard this also. However, given they have clearly designed the FB's to primarily be titillation tools for casuals (i.e., so that people who are getting beat [a lot] can still have their gory fun, and without any fighting game knowledge required), I highly doubt they would make them -60 frames on block / wiff -- thereby, rendering them useless for the same low level players they had in mind when they re-designed the "X-Rays".

    I think this is gonna be one of those things that are gonna have to wait to launch to fully evaluate, not that voicing our concerns now isn't valid, that's mostly the point of this beta.
    This touches on what worries me the most: If the major changes aren't made now, they likely won't be made at all (unless they genuinely affect e-sports / competitive play). The proposed Amplify inputs were dumped pre-release, but, I'd wager they would not have been had they had made it into the final product -- at most, relegated to an optional input scheme. Moreover, NRS do not historically makes games to last for the long term (...being benefactored by Warner would certainly have something to do with this). So, if we don't get what we want pre-launch, I doubt NRS will even be paying that much attention 6+ months down the track, when their focu$ will be on Injustice 3... I couldn't even get an answer the "no load-outs for player-2" problem in Injustice 2!

    My overall concern is the sense of repetition and predictability that I'm already getting from how the matches play out (as outlined in my OP). I'm noticing that the effect of:
    - lessened combo variety (even the ability to 'fall out' of comboes)
    - meters taking care of themselves
    - no breakers (not that I even liked them, but, they did serve to interrupt repetition, nonetheless)
    - still only a single, solitary "super" (FB) per character (this crap has to evolve... I mean, really)
    - the guaranteed availability of FB's in every round, until landed
    - the non-discriminatory damage-scaling that acts as a deterrent for using FB's as anything but YOLO's or to abuse their armour properties

    ...In concert, will exacerbate a problem that has been extant since MK9 (where the "super" mechanic was introduced into the MK franchise): That, without the "supers" being of the traditional kind (proper input commands, individualised per char.; multiple "supers" per char.; different 'tiers' of "super" -- super, desperation, super desperation; meter + HP dependence; some /any kind of execution barrier), the mechanic in question smacks of being only in place to pander to non-fighting-game gamers (the "tourists"), and not for those who actually care about the nuts and bolts of their games (the "residents").

    That is to say, the casuals will certainly like the gore-on-tap nature of the FB's, and how they're given to them for free. But, this demographic won't be around a month after launch -- not even long enough for the 'ennui' to set in. Whereas, the fans of the game, who actually want a good Mortal Kombat fighting game, and one they're not itching to dump for the next NRS game, will get stuck with an ill-thought-out Fatal Blow system that wasn't even conceived for them... =/
    Last edited by DeBane; 03-29-2019 at 08:42 AM.

  4. #4
    Tarkatan Warrior JinCA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    315
    Thanked: 78
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Re: Fatal Blow: Too Frequent?

    Sorry but the fact that at the very most you can only see these twice in a match means they aren't too frequent. A fighting game can't be made to only appeal to people who watch streams and tournaments, as someone who LOVES MK but isn't the best player I appreciate the changes they've made moving these from X-rays that could be done multiple times by someone in a match to a once per match super move that is basically a hail Mary .

  5. #5
    Tarkatan Warrior DeBane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Age
    50
    Posts
    350
    Thanked: 32
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)

    Re: Fatal Blow: Too Frequent?

    Quote Originally Posted by JinCA View Post
    Sorry but the fact that at the very most you can only see these twice in a match means they aren't too frequent.
    Well, that's wholly subjective... And I'd argue that seeing the same Fatal Blow a thousand times (and you will see it that often -- offline, online and / or during streams / tournies), is far too much for a brain to bear. I mean, if something as simple as taking a different route to work each day is understood to help neural plasticity and, thus, stave of degenerative brain diseases, surely seeing the exact same on-screen actions over and over, has to have some deleterious effect on people...(?)

    A fighting game can't be made to only appeal to people who watch streams and tournaments, as someone who LOVES MK but isn't the best player I appreciate the changes they've made moving these from X-rays that could be done multiple times by someone in a match to a once per match super move that is basically a hail Mary .
    I'm not advocating for the "steams" or "tournament" side of the ledger -- neither hold any interest for me: streams are only for pre-release titillation, and tournaments have become so predictable in how players play (ironically, largely because of how homogenised / "balanced" games are made nowadays -- SPECIFICALLY FOR TOURNAMENTS!), that I would rather watch fossils form, frankly. I even tried to watch some SonicFox-Deoxys (and some other guy I forget now) "stress test" play, and... err... Let's just say, after the 20th low poke, I shut the browser >_>

    What I'm actually saying is that the game will become stale FOR EVERYONE, if the FB's are seen (x2) every match... And we only have one FB per character, making it even worse. Moreover, with their seeming limited application -- both because (as you alluded to) they're best done in a "hail Mary" fashion, and because of non-discriminatory damage-scaling almost certainly rendering them pointless in combos (presuming some can even be worked into comboes... which may not be guaranteed within the framework of MK11's new 'lesser combo' mechanic) -- you'll not only be seeing the same FB's over and over, but, they'll be used in the identical way... over and over.

    Boon stated that the reason they made the change to the erstwhile "X-Rays" was because no one used them in the past games -- which is true (again: damage-scaling / output versus meter cost). Well, they've seemingly swung the pendulum to the other extreme, where every round, until an FB is landed, will revolve around throwing these "hail Mary" passes... How is that going to be fun or fresh or entertaining? I'm already bored of it from watching a couple hours of the beta!

    The fix:
    - tie FB's to meter(s)
    - decrease remaining HP activation threshold (10~15% remaining)
    - increase damage to "desperation move" levels (used with either attack or defensive meter = 40~50%; with both meters = 50~60%)
    - remove armour (making them less YOLO-centric)
    - increase recovery time to a literal free punish (risk-reward)
    - place counter properties on the wiffed / blocked FB (greatly increasing damage of subsequent punishes)
    - make them very difficult to tack onto the end of comboes
    - ...BUT, remove damage-scaling on the FB if and when they are used as combo enders (1,2,3 [scaled] > 2,3 [scaled] > FB [un-scaled]) -- so as to make their varied application more viable
    (- give characters two or three FB's each)

    Do that, and the game will be golden. Leave them as is and, mark my words, you will have seen how any match-up will play out after the first time you witness it. >pick one

  6. #6
    New Kombatant C A T's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    in a cardboard box
    Age
    45
    Posts
    14
    Thanked: 2
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Re: Fatal Blow: Too Frequent?

    I'm not into competition play so I have zero idea how this would affect it, but I'm still of the opinion that Fatal Blows should be one attempt and that's it. If you whiff, you're shit out of luck. Make it like this and its usage becomes much more strategic

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. MK 9 dissconects more frequent now
    By lariat in forum Online Multiplayer
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 07-22-2012, 05:52 PM
  2. Cyber Sub-Zero X-Ray plus Fatality+Sektor 2nd Fatal+Johnny Cage 2nd Fatal
    By StatisticalPizza in forum Spoilers, Leaks, and Rumors
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-17-2011, 08:46 PM
  3. Supurb! Fatal swoop
    By Gororules in forum Mortal Kombat Fan Artwork
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 05-18-2005, 09:34 AM
  4. Jax's Fatal Sighted in 1.44
    By Jeff Greeson in forum TRMK's Front Page News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-11-1997, 11:00 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •