My opinion of Saibot and online gameplay

I mean, Yea.. Any character can beat any character if both of the players have no idea what they're doing.

But on a high level, some match ups are near impossible to win. Sheeva vs Kabal is like 9-1 bro.

Everyone assumes people playing are tournament level and are precisely equally skilled. If this was the case, I would agree with 9-1 but not 10-0 as BBBLP suggests

Edit: Shira, after reading that I roflmao`d, despite my counter arguments xD
 
ANY character CANNOT win against ANY character at high level play.

Im kinda on the fence with that comment, but first, let me tell you a bit about my experience in MK9 online(yea I know Online has its flaws and you cant really take it too seriously, but you cannot deny there are great online players). but anyway,

Im not a HARDCORE gamer, and I dont really know the mechanics of MK gameplay. I dont know who is low tier or high, and I honestly dont even care to learn it. I like playing for fun.

I know a few kombos for certain chars i use alot, not 14+ hits long, but from 6 to 10+ hits, i can juggle alittle and etc 'bread n butters' if you will and of course i know their special moves (again the chars i use alot which are only half the roster, if that). And that is all I have needed to get me by. Ive come across ALOT of players online, some that plain sucks, some that are more my speed, and some that are SUPERB! and Ive beaten a few of the latter consecutively, despite them having MUCH great skill than I and knowing the mechanics. I have a 5000+ win and alittle over 1000 loses 'player match' record on my ID(if that means anything, which to some it does not, myself included).

You can call it luck; some were infact, or perhaps I had better strategy? Perhaps I look at this digital fighting much like a REAL fight and react accordingly?(place myself in scorpion's shoes, if that makes sense) or perhaps he was not as great as i thought? whatever the explanation, I have beaten them.

My style is more of 'inside fighting' on MK, i dont like projectile wars and zoning, that is not my style, even for chars i use who specialize in zoning.

But My mindset when fighting those who are greater than me(real or imagined) has always been "Knowledge and patience, the only counter to greater skill." and it has done WONDERS for me against ALOT of truly GREAT MK Online fighters who can put me into spots that have been hard to get out of in the past.

im not as committed to learning the mechanics as others but rather rely on my own strategy and tactics even if that means taking Jade, scorpion, Liu or skarlet and trying to go inside to attack a good zoning(not spamming, but Zoning) Kenshi player. Again with knowledge and patience, i HAVE done things like that and have come out on top plenty of times. but again, i am not a 'High level player' so perhaps that would make difference...?

So explain to me why "ANY char cannot beat ANY char" when used by high level players? (use MK9).

'Baraka vs Kenshi'
Sheeva and Kabal
Stryker and Cage

your examples.
 
Im kinda on the fence with that comment, but first, let me tell you a bit about my experience in MK9 online(yea I know Online has its flaws and you cant really take it too seriously, but you cannot deny there are great online players). but anyway,

Im not a HARDCORE gamer, and I dont really know the mechanics of MK gameplay. I dont know who is low tier or high, and I honestly dont even care to learn it. I like playing for fun.

I know a few kombos for certain chars i use alot, not 14+ hits long, but from 6 to 10+ hits, i can juggle alittle and etc 'bread n butters' if you will and of course i know their special moves (again the chars i use alot which are only half the roster, if that). And that is all I have needed to get me by. Ive come across ALOT of players online, some that plain sucks, some that are more my speed, and some that are SUPERB! and Ive beaten a few of the latter consecutively, despite them having MUCH great skill than I and knowing the mechanics. I have a 5000+ win and alittle over 1000 loses 'player match' record on my ID(if that means anything, which to some it does not, myself included).

You can call it luck; some were infact, or perhaps I had better strategy? Perhaps I look at this digital fighting much like a REAL fight and react accordingly?(place myself in scorpion's shoes, if that makes sense) or perhaps he was not as great as i thought? whatever the explanation, I have beaten them.

My style is more of 'inside fighting' on MK, i dont like projectile wars and zoning, that is not my style, even for chars i use who specialize in zoning.

But My mindset when fighting those who are greater than me(real or imagined) has always been "Knowledge and patience, the only counter to greater skill." and it has done WONDERS for me against ALOT of truly GREAT MK Online fighters who can put me into spots that have been hard to get out of in the past.

im not as committed to learning the mechanics as others but rather rely on my own strategy and tactics even if that means taking Jade, scorpion, Liu or skarlet and trying to go inside to attack a good zoning(not spamming, but Zoning) Kenshi player. Again with knowledge and patience, i HAVE done things like that and have come out on top plenty of times. but again, i am not a 'High level player' so perhaps that would make difference...?

So explain to me why "ANY char cannot beat ANY char" when used by high level players? (use MK9).

'Baraka vs Kenshi'
Sheeva and Kabal
Stryker and Cage

your examples.

Finally lol. -kneels-
 
Look here, Noob saibot is mid-tier for a reason. He has MANY bad matchups, and his good matchups aren't even severely in his favor.

And Noob Saibot man, you're not getting what BBBLP is saying.

he isn't saying crap like kunglao vs sheeva is 10-0. Infact I'm willing to be he didn't say ANYTHING was 10-0.

But even if it's 9-1. you don't play ONE ROUND, and advance in bracket. you play in SETS. you are gonna lose as sheeva 9 out of 10 times. If you figure in the odds of winning TWO matches out of 3. the chance is so ridiculously low, you should just drop the character.

that's what he means by unviable. Now lets assume you win the lottery and beat a kung lao with sheeva making perfect reads. You don't think in 200+ man bracket you won't run into more?

it's simple math man. IT doesn't auto-translate, but at some point you have to realize when a matchup is just unviable.

Yoshi has NEVER gotten top 8 at a smash bros tournament. I'm willing to bet Kano has never been top 8 either.

the odds get stacked against you so hard it's nearly impossible. not impossible, but pretty damn close.




EDIT:
Noob saibot isn't hard to deal with. once you get within dash distance, you can bait an upknee and get a free D4/D3 for free pressure, or use a projectile like freeze/net.

shadowtackle and shadow slide are VERY negative on block so if you guess wrong when they're in your face, you're eating a full combo or pressure which noob has huge problems getting out of.


At a little more than midscreen away, you can simply jump ONE shadow, dash block(guess 50/50) and they're already in your face.
 
Look here, Noob saibot is mid-tier for a reason. He has MANY bad matchups, and his good matchups aren't even severely in his favor.

And Noob Saibot man, you're not getting what BBBLP is saying.

he isn't saying crap like kunglao vs sheeva is 10-0. Infact I'm willing to be he didn't say ANYTHING was 10-0.

But even if it's 9-1. you don't play ONE ROUND, and advance in bracket. you play in SETS. you are gonna lose as sheeva 9 out of 10 times. If you figure in the odds of winning TWO matches out of 3. the chance is so ridiculously low, you should just drop the character.

that's what he means by unviable. Now lets assume you win the lottery and beat a kung lao with sheeva making perfect reads. You don't think in 200+ man bracket you won't run into more?

it's simple math man. IT doesn't auto-translate, but at some point you have to realize when a matchup is just unviable.

Yoshi has NEVER gotten top 8 at a smash bros tournament. I'm willing to bet Kano has never been top 8 either.

the odds get stacked against you so hard it's nearly impossible. not impossible, but pretty damn close.





EDIT:
Noob saibot isn't hard to deal with. once you get within dash distance, you can bait an upknee and get a free D4/D3 for free pressure, or use a projectile like freeze/net.

shadowtackle and shadow slide are VERY negative on block so if you guess wrong when they're in your face, you're eating a full combo or pressure which noob has huge problems getting out of.


At a little more than midscreen away, you can simply jump ONE shadow, dash block(guess 50/50) and they're already in your face.

I think the main problem here is that everyone confuses impossible with difficult or unlikely.
 
No? I said "Near Impossible" in all of my posts.

Near impossible =/= Impossible.

The problem is that you couldn't accept the fact that you were wrong. We're not going to give you bad advice, bro. The ones who responded to this thread are experienced players and are trying to do everything we can to help you and give you the correct information.
 
No? I said "Near Impossible" in all of my posts.

Near impossible =/= Impossible.

The problem is that you couldn't accept the fact that you were wrong. We're not going to give you bad advice, bro. The ones who responded to this thread are experienced players and are trying to do everything we can to help you and give you the correct information.

ATM All im getting is you stating your opinion, me stating mine, you saying it is wrong, me contradicting, you getting aggravated then start using vulgarities, then start yelling that im wrong and if i cant accept it im bad.

BEFORE YOU REPLY, No vital I am not referring specfically to you, but the people in this thread in general.

This is a thread for opinions. Not someone strolling in saying "Look here this is the way to go and you dont agree with me you are an idiot/immature/play a mid tier character because tiers matter/etc
 
Yea, I know this thread was open for "Opinions" but we're laying out facts in front of you, and you're just denying what's right compared to what you believe and it's so frustrating to see someone just deny knowledge that could help them level up their gameplay.
 
There are only opinions and suggestions. A character would not be implemented if it were worthless, I do take your advices to heart HOWEVER trying to ram your ideas down peoples throats doesnt gain you merit
 
Noob said:
There are only opinions and suggestions. A character would not be implemented if it were worthless, I do take your advices to heart HOWEVER trying to ram your ideas down peoples throats doesnt gain you merit


So really you're saying the Developers new ALL the tech and potential of each character before release and decided to keep it all a secret and not tell us anything.. Along with all the broken things that characters had. (Pre-Patch Lao's Spin, and Kabal's block infinite)

If that was the case, wouldn't each character have at least 1 - 2 wins under their name at Majors? But the ways it's looking now, Mid to Top tier are winning and making Top 8.
 
Yea, I know this thread was open for "Opinions" but we're laying out facts in front of you, and you're just denying what's right compared to what you believe and it's so frustrating to see someone just deny knowledge that could help them level up their gameplay.

do you have any examples of these 'facts'? a video or something?
 
So really you're saying the Developers new ALL the tech and potential of each character before release and decided to keep it all a secret and not tell us anything.. Along with all the broken things that characters had. (Pre-Patch Lao's Spin, and Kabal's block infinite)

If that was the case, wouldn't each character have at least 1 - 2 wins under their name at Majors? But the ways it's looking now, Mid to Top tier are winning and making Top 8.

Are you seriously suggesting that im expecting way too much from the developers for them to have decent balancing? You`re talking like I`m crazy.
 
Are you seriously suggesting that im expecting way too much from the developers for them to have decent balancing? You`re talking like I`m crazy.

We're talking about NRS here, their games are fun, but do you really believe those guys can make a fighting game that isn't broken somehow? There are reasons why their games were not tournament viable before MK9, all they cared about was the gore back then, people were laughing at games like Deception and Armageddon, pretty much the same team who worked for Midway are working for NRS now. MK9 is broken as well, Kabal's pressure game is way too good, Kenshi has too much armor, Cyrax and Smoke have resets that can kill their opponent with one single combo. Were the developers aware that no Jade would stand chance against a Kenshi and the match-up would end up being 9-1 in favor of the blind swordsman?

Btw, Noob's d1 is terrible.
 
do you have any examples of these 'facts'? a video or something?

Asian Lover said:
Noob saibot isn't hard to deal with. once you get within dash distance, you can bait an upknee and get a free D4/D3 for free pressure, or use a projectile like freeze/net.

shadowtackle and shadow slide are VERY negative on block so if you guess wrong when they're in your face, you're eating a full combo or pressure which noob has huge problems getting out of.


At a little more than midscreen away, you can simply jump ONE shadow, dash block(guess 50/50) and they're already in your

Need more?

http://www.trmk.org/forums/showthread.php/26114-Random-Gameplay-Facts-thread
 

Id rather see it in action, those words mean nothing to me.
As I stated earlier im not a "competitive gamer", so i dont know the mechanics for MK9 nor these frames, tiers etc and i dont care to learn them to an extent. I play MK for the fun of a good challenge and ive come across MANY great fighters, some ive beaten.

I guess what I want to know is, Why Certain chars cant beat certain chars, according to you all?

you guys keep saying the odds are either in favor of ____, or out of favor for_____. why is that?

why cant a good baraka beat a good kenshi? because kenshi has great zoning potential?

or who ever else is a "bad match"? ive seen these in the MK9 manual, where they may say, Sub Zero's worst match is_____ char.
 
Id rather see it in action, those words mean nothing to me.
As I stated earlier im not a "competitive gamer", so i dont know the mechanics for MK9 nor these frames, tiers etc and i dont care to learn them to an extent. I play MK for the fun of a good challenge and ive come across MANY great fighters, some ive beaten.

I guess what I want to know is, Why Certain chars cant beat certain chars, according to you all?

you guys keep saying the odds are either in favor of ____, or out of favor for_____. why is that?

why cant a good baraka beat a good kenshi? because kenshi has great zoning potential?

or who ever else is a "bad match"? ive seen these in the MK9 manual, where they may say, Sub Zero's worst match is_____ char.

There's a shit ton of High level footage on Youtube, just search for it if you want to see it for yourself.

Now to answer your question..

Character aren't made the same, Yea, the fundamentals of MK apply to every character (Footsies, Zoning, Space control etc..) however, some character have certain attributes that are Character specific that put them at a advantage or disadvantage over another character in Match ups.

Example:

Kabal vs Cage and Mileena vs Cage.

Since Kabal has his Nomad dash cancel, and if he options to spend a bar to EX it he has the ability to Nullify any hit from ANY character and can combo of it to lock you down in his Nomad Dash Mix up. So the Cage player has to be careful when throwing out strings while in Kabal's face or if the Kabal player predicts Cage to use an Advancing normal to (F+3) get in and start pressure, he can break his offense and start his own.

Now, Lets look at the Mileena v Kabal Match up. Mileena has NO armor on NONE of her EX moves, so she doesn't have that "Get out of Pressure" free card like Kabal does against Cage and she's forced to guess for a chance to poke out of Cage's pressure. So she has to either take the chip and die or risk around 11% damage by guessing to poke out of Cage's Godlike pressure.

So to sum this up..

Kabal has the ability to get out of Cage's pressure at cost of Meter and he gets a full combo to start his Mix-up game that can lead into MORE damage and back into the same Mix-up situation.

While Mileena is forced to guess free of meter, but she's risking her health bar for ONLY the option to get out of Cage's pressure.

Kabal's EX Nomad Dash makes it easier for him to deal with Cage, While Mileena has to... Guess.. It's beyond gay, Armor on her EX roll in MK10 :cry:

ANYWAYS..

But that slight Advantage can turn a 5-5 Match up to 6-4 or even 8-2...

Edit: Forgot to mention that Kabal can Whiff punish negros from Mid screen with that dash too, and his iAGB is ridiculous, best zoner in the game.
 
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There's a shit ton of High level footage on Youtube, just search for it if you want to see it for yourself.

Now to answer your question..

Character aren't made the same, Yea, the fundamentals of MK apply to every character (Footsies, Zoning, Space control etc..) however, some character have certain attributes that are Character specific that put them at a advantage or disadvantage over another character in Match ups.

Example:

Kabal vs Cage and Mileena vs Cage.

Since Kabal has his Nomad dash cancel, and if he options to spend a bar to EX it he has the ability to Nullify any hit from ANY character and can combo of it to lock you down in his Nomad Dash Mix up. So the Cage player has to be careful when throwing out strings while in Kabal's face or if the Kabal player predicts Cage to use an Advancing normal to (F+3) get in and start pressure, he can break his offense and start his own.

Now, Lets look at the Mileena v Kabal Match up. Mileena has NO armor on NONE of her EX moves, so she doesn't have that "Get out of Pressure" free card like Kabal does against Cage and she's forced to guess for a chance to poke out of Cage's pressure. So she has to either take the chip and die or risk around 11% damage by guessing to poke out of Cage's Godlike pressure.

So to sum this up..

Kabal has the ability to get out of Cage's pressure at cost of Meter and he gets a full combo to start his Mix-up game that can lead into MORE damage and back into the same Mix-up situation.

While Mileena is forced to guess free of meter, but she's risking her health bar for ONLY the option to get out of Cage's pressure.

Kabal's EX Nomad Dash makes it easier for him to deal with Cage, While Mileena has to... Guess.. It's beyond gay, Armor on her EX roll in MK10 :cry:

ANYWAYS..

But that slight Advantage can turn a 5-5 Match up to 6-4 or even 8-2...

Edit: Forgot to mention that Kabal can Whiff punish negros from Mid screen with that dash too, and his iAGB is ridiculous, best zoner in the game.
yea ive seen the EVO footages, small tourneys from other spots, footage from "perfect legend" or whoever, the tom brady guy etc. those guys are great fighters and all, but i come across guys who can do stuff like that as well or pretty darn close all the time. guys who have VERY precise imputs, can do resets, lay 22+ on me like nothing ,all of that ive heard of and experienced and ive STILL managed to beat a few, consecutively upon occasions, with my casual skills and my limited number of chars.

im not one who uses alot of kombos because im not that great with precise imputs. i fumble kombos all the time, and since i do that, i have to rely on the simper moves(uppercuts, simple kicks, 1,2 punches) and work them strategically to do the job. it takes longer, but i get it done. and using that along with patience and knowledge, ive beaten a few of the BEST MK9 has to offer online.

im aware offline gameplay is a little different then online but not by too much, its just no lag and you can probably get in a few more hits in your kombos.

all im saying is that, despite what you may think, i do believe SOME HOW SOME WAY there IS a way for any char to beat any char on this game, more than once or twice. My 2 years of experience fighting on this game the way I Do and using my fighting knowledge as a REAL martial artist, to help me strategically, leaves me to believe so.

Perhaps the way you're using the char is not the best way he can win this seemingly impossible contest?
sometimes the "right" or "proper" path isnt always the BEST one.

perhaps the answer does not lie in how you can set up this guy to do some serious punishment with a kombo...perhaps kombos are not needed? I do it ALL the time, and beat LOTs(some MUCH greater then me in skill) who rely on them heavily.
 
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