Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 34

Thread: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

  1. #1
    Black Dragon Recruit Vulcan Hades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Age
    36
    Posts
    533
    Thanked: 0
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    What is Frame Data



    Here's the gist of it:

    Start up/Execution frames = Speed of the attack
    Active frames = Duration of the attack
    Recovery frames = Cool down before you can move, attack or block again
    Stun frames = Duration in which you cannot move or respond (but you can still block in MK9 unless it's a chain)

    All attacks inflict hitstun / blockstun which leave you either at +frames or at -frames. And players with frame advantage can attack/respond sooner.

    ex: An attack that leaves you at -7 disadvantage on block can be punished by Kung Lao's Spin (which has 6 start up).

    That's really all you need to understand for starters. But here's a video that explains it all more clearly:



    Make sure to check the next part too. The guy is talking about SSF4, but frame data is a universal thing for all fighting games.

    On a side note, hitstun isn't exactly the same for SF and MK9. In MK9 some attacks inflict a stagger state in which you cannot move, jump or respond, but you can still instantly block. This is why you cannot combo a D1 into another D1 like in SF even though you have enough +frame advantage.


    What frame data can be used for

    -knowing what is punishable on block
    -designing frame traps*
    -figuring out what pokes to use in footsies*
    -finding out the best blockstrings* for your character
    -finding block infinites* and jail strings*
    -knowing your best tools to space out rushdown or create space
    -knowing what meaty attacks* are better

    I will probably go over those terms in another post...


    Calculating Frame Data

    Now for people interested and wanna try calculating frame data by themselves, these are the various calculation methods currently used:

    Execution Frames Calculation Method:

    Record at 60 frames per second
    Quote Originally Posted by Sprint
    1. First frame: The frame where the limb glows red, or the frame before the button press is displayed.
    2. First active frame: The frame before the damage display appears, or the frame where the opponent starts to recoil.
    3. First cancelled frame: The first frame of a special move when cancelled into, identified by the red limb. Can also be located by finding the frame on which the special hits and subtracting its startup.

    Startup = First active frame - First frame
    Execution = Startup + 1
    Cancelled duration = First cancelled frame - First frame
    Duration = First fully recovered frame - First frame

    Advantage on hit/on block Calculation Method:

    Method 1: The Jump Method:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sprint
    Frame advantage: Hold up with both players and measure the difference between the jumping animations. In my case I controlled P2 with my feet to speed things up, but if you want you can pause the moment an attack hits and start holding up on both controllers during the pause menu.


    You attack the CPU dummy then when he's in hitstun/blockstun you set AI settings to "no block" and "jump". Then hold up. Both characters will start jumping as soon as they have recovered, but sometimes the CPU won't jump right away, which is why ideally you want to test it a few times to make sure the CPU jumps on the earliest of frames. It's also much easier if you have someone on human holding up for you the whole time (or do it yourself with another controller).

    You do it twice for each attack (one for adv. on hit and one for adv. on block) and you record it at 60 frames per second. Then all you need to do is play back frame by frame and calculate the difference. For example, if my character starts jumping 5 frames earlier than my opponent on block, then that means the attack is +5 on block. You can start measuring frames on the start of the jump, on the peak of the jump, or when they land. It doesn't really matter, all you need to know is the difference in frames.

    Why the jump method? Because in theory when you recover from stun as soon as you can jump you can also attack. So this gives you a pretty decent estimate of frame advantage. Though it's not 100% accurate (1-2f margin of error).

    Important things to note:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sprint
    There appears to be a 1 frame transition between crouching and standing that I overlooked.

    Kitana's d+1 is -1 on hit.
    According to the jump method it's -2 (apparently the "animation fluff" made you misidentify it)

    Method 2: DrDogg's way:

    Quote Originally Posted by DrDogg
    What I will be doing to test hit/block frame data (as soon as I find my PS3 component cable, or buy another one -_-) is to get execution data for all characters first, then perform an attack and see if it can be punished by the fastest attack in the game (Raiden's Superman, I believe). If it can't be punished, I then look for an attack that is one frame slower than Kitana's fastest move. I perform the move I'm testing, then mash Kitana's fastest attack and the selected attack to see which one wins. If the other attack wins, I move to an attack that is one frame slower and test again. I continue this process until I find an attack that Kitana beats, then add 1 frame to make up for the no trade issue. Does that make sense?
    As you can see he uses a more complicated calculation method but this gives him more accurate numbers than the jump method.

    Here's some moves you can use for this method:

    -Sub Zero's D,B,1 (2 start up)
    -Kung Lao's D,F,1, Reptile's B,F,2 or Kitana's D1 (6 start up)
    -Johnny Cage's uppercut or Kung Lao's D1 (7 start up)
    -Raiden's B,F,3 (8 start up)
    -Johnny Cage's D,B,3 (9 start up)
    -Throw or Nightwolf's F,F,4 (10 start up)*
    -Reptile's 2 or Kabal's uppercut (11 start up) *
    -Reptile's B,F,4 or Kabal's D4 (12 start up)
    -Kenshi's 3 or Scorpion's B,B,1 (13 start up)
    -Kenshi's D,B,1 (14 start up)


    Hope this will encourage more people to test with their own characters and get their own frame data out.


    Frame Data project on TYM: http://testyourmight.com/forum/showt...e-Data-Project
    Last edited by Vulcan Hades; 07-22-2011 at 07:39 PM.

  2. #2
    Lin Kuei Assassin Demetrius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Age
    28
    Posts
    2,023
    Thanked: 44
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    what are the odds that you will post the Stryker data :D

  3. #3
    Special Forces Agent FlawlessVictor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    3,510
    Thanked: 442
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    When the frame is between startup and active (half red and green according to the diagram), does it register as it hit or does it have to be fully active (all red) to be considered as a hit?

  4. #4
    Black Dragon Recruit Maatthew's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    4th Chamber
    Posts
    644
    Thanked: 0
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    Very nice thread, been wanting to learn frame data

  5. #5
    Lin Kuei Assassin Eks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    2,823
    Xbox Live
    eksyte
    PSN
    eksyte
    Thanked: 103
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    That first pic is great and anyone who doesn't like this thread should retire from MK and fighting games immediately.
    ďThe problem is that I donít know what I want.
    Itís like pornography or the perfect turd;
    I can't quite describe it, but Iíll know it when I see it.Ē
    Trevor Phillips, GTA V

  6. #6
    Black Dragon Recruit Vulcan Hades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Age
    36
    Posts
    533
    Thanked: 0
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    Quote Originally Posted by FlawlessVictor View Post
    When the frame is between startup and active (half red and green according to the diagram), does it register as it hit or does it have to be fully active (all red) to be considered as a hit?
    A move with "6 start up" means the hitbox starts being active on the 6th frame. I suggest you watch the first video I posted, VesperArcade does a great job explaining it.

    btw that first pic was just an illustration someone made to explain frames more easily (it's also fake btw). But yes, it's fully active as soon as the hitbox appears (problem is you can't see hitboxes ingame).
    Last edited by Vulcan Hades; 07-17-2011 at 07:09 PM.

  7. #7
    'Strayan Moderator Jinko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sydney, 'Straya
    Age
    27
    Posts
    3,113
    Twitter
    @JinkoMK
    PSN
    VinnyPoo
    Steam
    JinkoMK
    Thanked: 75
    Mentioned
    17 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    While this thread is in the correct place, I feel it deserves to be in the Gameplay Forum. It will be moved there and be stickied.

    This is a great thread for amateurs preparing to play competitively. Hats off to you.


  8. #8
    Shaolin Monk aedanwolfe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    the places between
    Age
    33
    Posts
    1,123
    PSN
    aether99
    Thanked: 0
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    best thread ever? i think so +rep to you!
    Noob: FEAR ME!
    Cyber Sub-Zero: You are not so fearsome
    Noob: /sadface
    PSN network, aether99

  9. #9
    Black Dragon Recruit Vulcan Hades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Age
    36
    Posts
    533
    Thanked: 0
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    @Jinko: Thanks man. Took me a while to found my thread again, I thought someone delete it.

  10. #10
    Tarkatan Warrior B13-Helghast's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Belgium, Antwerp
    Age
    37
    Posts
    376
    Xbox Live
    The most useless thing I own
    PSN
    B13-Helghast
    Thanked: 2
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    Yup + rep for the effort man, now I can make my buddies at home clear that it really exists and that I can not see into the future and counter their attacks with faster ones, like they often accuse me of, lol I know frame data stuff but you explain it very easy though.
    I wish...

  11. #11
    Special Forces Agent FlawlessVictor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    3,510
    Thanked: 442
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan Hades View Post
    A move with "6 start up" means the hitbox starts being active on the 6th frame. I suggest you watch the first video I posted, VesperArcade does a great job explaining it.

    btw that first pic was just an illustration someone made to explain frames more easily (it's also fake btw). But yes, it's fully active as soon as the hitbox appears (problem is you can't see hitboxes ingame).
    I see. Thanks for the clarification.

  12. #12
    Shaolin Monk Zoidberg747's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Age
    24
    Posts
    1,372
    Thanked: 1
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    keep in mind unless your recorder is 60 fps your frame data will be inaccurate(learned this the hard way)

    MK9: Baraka, Kano, Sindel
    SCV: Mitsurugi, Pyrrha Omega
    Tekken 6: Jack 6, Roger Jr.

  13. #13
    God of War Fanboy AMES32's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Rome
    Age
    27
    Posts
    3,754
    Twitter
    @_Ames32_
    PSN
    Ames32
    Steam
    ames32
    Thanked: 177
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    this thread isn't going to be viable for vary long the frame data changes depending on when u release the block button or if u press the down button so i don't think this is good but i hope u can get the frame data but from this game but idk if u can.

    but i hope it work's out for the frame data tho it would help alot
    Last edited by AMES32; 07-17-2011 at 10:22 PM.

  14. #14
    Tarkatan Warrior rinc-e's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Age
    31
    Posts
    307
    Thanked: 0
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    Good Stuff man!

    Haven't read/watched all of it yet (will do tomorrow), but there are some good/complete Frame Data listups in the char forums @TYM, for the most used chars yet (except smoke).

    also correct me if I'm wrong ..but those lists are not valid online (since the game runs slower duo connection/input lag).

  15. #15
    Shaolin Monk aedanwolfe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    the places between
    Age
    33
    Posts
    1,123
    PSN
    aether99
    Thanked: 0
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    Quote Originally Posted by AMES32 View Post
    this thread isn't going to be viable for vary long the frame data changes depending on when u release the block button or if u press the down button so i don't think this is good but i hope u can get the frame data but from this game but idk if u can.
    read the main post man , the OP touches on that already. unless im reading you wrong. either way we can get startup frames of each characters main attacks which is still pretty good.
    Noob: FEAR ME!
    Cyber Sub-Zero: You are not so fearsome
    Noob: /sadface
    PSN network, aether99

  16. #16
    Shaolin Monk aedanwolfe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    the places between
    Age
    33
    Posts
    1,123
    PSN
    aether99
    Thanked: 0
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    Quote Originally Posted by rinc-e View Post
    Good Stuff man!

    Haven't read/watched all of it yet (will do tomorrow), but there are some good/complete Frame Data listups in the char forums @TYM, for the most used chars yet (except smoke).

    also correct me if I'm wrong ..but those lists are not valid online (since the game runs slower duo connection/input lag).
    well the frames would be the same, just the input delay between you inputting the buttons and them happenign would be different. theoretically it should all work out hte same since your just adding a static number of "frames" (ie lag) to everything you input...its supposed to even out.
    Noob: FEAR ME!
    Cyber Sub-Zero: You are not so fearsome
    Noob: /sadface
    PSN network, aether99

  17. #17
    Tarkatan Warrior rinc-e's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Age
    31
    Posts
    307
    Thanked: 0
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    Quote Originally Posted by aedanwolfe View Post
    well the frames would be the same, just the input delay between you inputting the buttons and them happenign would be different. theoretically it should all work out hte same since your just adding a static number of "frames" (ie lag) to everything you input...its supposed to even out.
    ok.. but I've read or heard somewhere that the game offline runs at 60fps and online at ~30fps ..?

  18. #18
    God of War Fanboy AMES32's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Rome
    Age
    27
    Posts
    3,754
    Twitter
    @_Ames32_
    PSN
    Ames32
    Steam
    ames32
    Thanked: 177
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    oh thanks i misunderstood the post

  19. #19
    Black Dragon Recruit navi24's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    east coast, usa
    Age
    33
    Posts
    648
    Thanked: 1
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    Quote Originally Posted by aedanwolfe View Post
    best thread ever? i think so +rep to you!
    exactly this^^. this is the most usefull thread on this site or for any fighting game site. its funny cause i learned how to read frames from SSF4, but ill definitely check it out in case i missed anything from b4. thnx alot +++++++ rep to u.

    why do fighting games dont include frame data on practice mode, i dont undersantd. damage,location, hits ect its great but frame data its the most essential part of training mode for any fighting game.
    Last edited by navi24; 07-17-2011 at 11:53 PM.

  20. #20
    Shaolin Monk yautjared's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Skarlet's Ninja Dojo
    Posts
    1,193
    Xbox Live
    yautjared
    PSN
    yautjared
    Thanked: 0
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)

    Re: Frame Data (for people that want to learn it)

    very interesting, useful, pratical and good information here. Frame data knowledge is a very, very important part of fighting games, and, apply this currently in the gameplay, when knowing this, you are able to refine A LOT your attack and defense strategies, knowing about your best and worse moves your favourite character has.

    +rep
    Skarlet : Kunoichi warrior, Kodachi master, Kunai expert.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Basic Raiden Frame Data
    By Notorious J.I.Z. in forum Characters & Gameplay
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 05-14-2011, 12:30 AM
  2. Frame data, are we ever going to see it?
    By TONY-T in forum Characters & Gameplay
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 05-08-2011, 09:41 AM
  3. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-22-2011, 02:42 PM
  4. How I can learn more about the MK Universe?
    By ManicRaider in forum Mortal Kombat General Discussion
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 04-03-2011, 10:04 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •