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Thread: High Level Gameplay Issues (Need feedback from VETERAN players)

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    High Level Gameplay Issues (Need feedback from VETERAN players)

    Disclaimer: I love fighting games in general. Tekken, Guilty Gear, and SF are the most high level fighting games I've been playing since 2 decades ago. I'm not elite, but I'm not noob either. I consider my skill somewhere average to above-average. I love MK1 to UMK3 but always considered it as a party type of game. MK9 is the greatest fanservice NRS have for us MK fans. While MK9's gameplay direction is closing the gap with the current high-level fighting games I've stated above, there are still few changes and enhancements that need to be considered. Here are the ff.:



    #1 ABILITY TO DELAY EACH ATTACK ON 3-HIT COMBO STRING

    MK9 is still a dial-a-3-hit-kombo-and-forget. One good thing about Tekken is that while you're executing your combo you're anticipating whether he'll block low or high and you'll be able to react and change the rest of the combo quickly from there. Unfortunately, you can't do this in MK9. Let's see one example, Noob's combo:

    B+1, 2, 1, 4 -> The 3rd attack hits mid, hitting an opponent blocking low.

    B+1, 2, F+4 -> The 3rd attack hits low, hitting an opponent blocking high.

    We can easily pre-buffer that in MK9 and see the result but we cannot delay each attack in the string the moment the attack connects to react opponent's defense. If that were like Tekken, you can press the button up to 2 and follow by either 1 or F+4 depending on whether he blocked your 2 with high or low. This is what makes Tekken a very competitive fighting game. While dial-a-kombo style is good for casual gamers, this should also be added for more higher level of gameplay.


    #2 B~B, (release B), 4 SHOULDN'T EXECUTE CYRAX'S SPECIAL MOVE

    In general fighting games, the notion plus (+) and comma (,) denotes pressing simultaneously and pressing sequentially respectively and the results are different. In MK9 however, it produces same result. The problem starts to annoy using some characters such as Cyrax. There are times I want to do his combo 3, 3, 4 instantly right after dashing back (B~B) but instead he performs his Net special move. Let's compare the ff.:

    NOTE: (~) means Press the buttons fast sequentially.

    Fighting games in general

    B~B~3, 3, 4 -> Shouldn't perform Net special move *CORRECT*
    B~B+3, 3, 4 -> Should perform Net special move *CORRECT*

    MK9
    B~B~3, 3, 4 -> Performs Net special move *WRONG* (Shouldn't perform Net special move)
    B~B+3, 3, 4 -> Should perform Net special move *CORRECT*


    #3 SPECIAL MOVE SHOULDN'T BE PERFORMED WHEN PRESSING FACE BUTTON (1, 2, 3, or 4) FIRST BEFORE THE D-PAD/STICK MOTION

    Let's see Sub-Zero's Ice Ball (D, F+3) case:

    3+D, F -> Notice how 3 is moved from the end position to start position of the command string.

    You'll see Sub-Zero performs that special move. It shouldn't be that way since it has disadvantages (see below).
    Let's see one example, Ermac's Force Ball (D, B+2) special move:

    Jump Kick toward enemy with 4 then perform Force Ball (D, B+2)
    (move summary: 4, D, B+2)

    You'll see how Ermac performs Force Port (D, B+4) instead of Force Ball (D, B+2) since 4, D, B has been pre-buffered and prioritized than D, B+2.

    Try doing that 10 times and tell me out of 10, how many times it resulted to what combo you have intended to do?


    #4 SPECIAL MOVE SHOULDN'T BE PERFORMED WHEN RELEASING FACE BUTTON (1, 2, 3, or 4) AT THE END OF COMMAND

    Let's use Sub-Zero's Ice Ball special move again on this case:

    Press and hold 3 (1 or more seconds) then perform D, F, (release 3)

    You'll see how Sub-Zero performs that special move. That move isn't possible on other high-level fighting games so that kinda weird for MK9.
    I still have some few more but don't have much time. I'll post more as soon as I can. Let's help NRS team to make MK9 a better game than already it is by providing feedback.
    Last edited by Chykun; 04-23-2011 at 08:09 AM.

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    Re: High Level Gameplay Issues

    (reserved)

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    New Kombatant cyke_out's Avatar
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    Re: High Level Gameplay Issues (Need feedback from VETERAN players)

    You're getting your inputs messed up with negative edge, not becuase the game is missing the needed components for competitive play.

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    Re: High Level Gameplay Issues (Need feedback from VETERAN players)

    I'm enjoying the game alot, but I have to agree with Chykun. Not being able to delay hits in a combo string is pretty awful. I find myself having to input the commands a lot sooner than i'd like to for the combo to actually come out, hence removing the ability to do high/low combo strings on block reactions. Also the input buffer in this game is just insane, for example you can do a kick with scorpion and input D.B and he'll teleport without needing to push kick a second time. It's actually alot more annoying than helpful as i find myself doing specials when i don't intend to.

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    Re: High Level Gameplay Issues (Need feedback from VETERAN players)

    Regarding 1), why do you deem it more correct to play against a defense in favor of the offense? Think of it as if you were the one blocking. Is it really more correct to be in a blockstring where your attacker can keep you in blockstring AND react to whether you are blocking high or low? Or do you just think it's more correct because it's what you are used to? Do you see the merits of how it stands now where you do buffer commands as a risk of attacking and the reward for damaging? I understand that with this system one would be guessing but that's the price for attacking in this game. It's just a matter of whether you prefer a game of reaction or a game of psychology and the best games tend to offer both. As it stands in this MK, if you're the defender and see that a guy is spamming a combo string, you can block accordingly without worry that he can react to your block direction. Neither method is worse or better, just different.

    With 2), can't that be fixed by tapping the opposite direction of the dash you input? B,B, (quick)F to neutral, 3, 3, 4 won't give you what you desire? If not, I agree they should fix that but if so, that's not really a problem.

    3 & 4), negative edge as cyke_out mentioned. Don't wanna do the move, don't release the button.

    It takes getting used to and I don't mean to sound condescending. These are easier said than done and if you can achieve the same result doing something you're not accustomed to doing, it's not a problem that needs to be fixed. However, if there are fundamental things that can't be done at all and without a workaround, they definitely need to be addressed in a patch.

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    Re: High Level Gameplay Issues (Need feedback from VETERAN players)

    As for you #2, I agree. I've had to change play style to accommodate for this. I have always used 4 for jump kicks out of habit but if I want to do a 2 hit string ending with a special that utilizes 4 I am forced to start with 3. It feels unnatural and is taking a lot of adjusting. Great thread +rep

    Edit: 3 not 2
    Last edited by The 6host; 04-23-2011 at 11:36 AM.

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    Re: High Level Gameplay Issues (Need feedback from VETERAN players)

    Quote Originally Posted by CHV7 View Post
    I'm enjoying the game alot, but I have to agree with Chykun. Not being able to delay hits in a combo string is pretty awful. I find myself having to input the commands a lot sooner than i'd like to for the combo to actually come out, hence removing the ability to do high/low combo strings on block reactions. Also the input buffer in this game is just insane, for example you can do a kick with scorpion and input D.B and he'll teleport without needing to push kick a second time. It's actually alot more annoying than helpful as i find myself doing specials when i don't intend to.
    the game is fun. and if its any condolence, the system works the same for everyone. you so called "tourny" players need to get some sunshine every now and then.

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    Re: High Level Gameplay Issues (Need feedback from VETERAN players)

    @Lunar Aura

    1) It's not really a problem in MK9 since the longest combo string without linking to special or juggle is 4 and few characters have that long. My main reason I want this it that it makes performing combo a lot more easier. I don't really like doing a combo by buffering 3 buttons w/in a second. Inputting each attack everytime you see the attack connects feels more rewarding and satisfying instead of buffer-and-forget style.

    2) That's an ugly workaround but works for characters that doesn't have B, F+3 special. And adding F, N is delays the move even more giving your opponent more chance to react.

    I don't really want to get used to these workarounds especially all current high-level fighting games behave similarly. If only this game didn't grew on me since 18 years ago. I hope its still possible to fix these issues and they are already making one.

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    Re: High Level Gameplay Issues (Need feedback from VETERAN players)

    Hey man, cool thread!

    1. I really like input delays in this context, but we should consider that there are more defensive options in Tekken to ensure that strings aren't overly effective. For example, the defender can use a low parry or a sidestep. If either of these are successful, the defender is greatly rewarded. I guess what I'm saying is that there are several factors that have to be considered before this technique should be implemented.

    Even though there are pre-canned string, I presume that you can still make some effective custom strings. Would be cool if NRS released some frame data.

    2 & 3. I would also prefer "tighter" controls, especially considering the examples that you gave. As Lunar Aura suggested, there are some workarounds to the problem you mentioned. In some situations, you can skip the neutral part of the command. Using your Cyrax example, you can do b,b~f+3 since f+3 and 3 produce the same move. Yes, I know that this is less than ideal.

    Anyway, it's still pretty early. There's clearly a lot of leniency for the inputs (perhaps done purposely for accessibility purposes). Besides these quirks, perhaps we will find some interesting techniques as a result. As an example, you can do Kabal's air fireball by doing u/b,b+1 (the faster your input, the closer he remains to the ground).

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    Re: High Level Gameplay Issues (Need feedback from VETERAN players)

    Quote Originally Posted by whityfrd View Post
    the game is fun. and if its any condolence, the system works the same for everyone. you so called "tourny" players need to get some sunshine every now and then.
    Was that an attack? What's wrong with attending local tournaments? You're making it sound like people who attend tournaments are basement dwellers, it's a very social environment and tons of fun. Yea, thanks for pointing out the obvious that the "system works the same for everyone" your post was pretty useless and added nothing to the thread.

    Were not bashing the game, were just stating things that could make the game much tighter and better for competitive play. That will do nothing but help the game in the long run and I'm sure that's what NRS is aiming for.

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    Re: High Level Gameplay Issues (Need feedback from VETERAN players)

    @whityfrd

    Every game needs a feedback to make it better and smarter. Don't settle with less if it can do more. I don't understand why these so-called tournament level players didn't noticed this issue or if NRS actually have time to fixed this issue before game release.

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