New Tier List post patch

Tabberknackle makes a valid point.

It's not just characters, it's players that make tier lists.

Now and again, you see someone like a Daigo come along, and do the most ridiculous things with a mid tier character. Ryu in SSF IV, for instance. Then he takes Yun to Evo and loses to Seth. The point is, certain pro players do stuff that others didnt think possible. Remember when Justin Wong said how terrible Adon was? Then he got destroyed by Gamerbee's Adon, and Wong was his best character, Rufus, who is considered "high tier".

I don't know how the Hell Jade is now, supposedly, the worst character in the game, when BRADY HIMSELF said she is the most untapped character in the game.

Damn, that Tier List is so biased it's ridiculous.
 
wow. this is how i know tier lists are pure bullshyt. johnny had 2 little nerfs. nut punch does 2% less damage and F3, 2 doesnt 2in1 into special moves no more. and he drops 2 ranks in the tiers. wtf? HE IS STILL THE SAME PERSON! yes, f3, 2 doesnt 2in1 BUT IT IS STILL SPECIAL CANCELLABLE! so johnny can still do one of his best block strings (f3 2 into en low orbs) and still continue his pressure since he's left with a frame advantage on block. he's still the EXACT same person imo and his "nerfs" didnt effect me one bit. and kitana drops one rank because she doesnt do as much damage anymore? my bnb only dropped 3% in dmg. thats not that bad. this makes no sense...

Yeah, but everyone else got buffed, so while Johnny didnt get nerfed, he also didnt get buffed..
 
But Flagg, Sub-Zero now has a slide that goes under Sindel's fireball, an enhanced slide with armor that goes through low fireballs easily and he now even has less recovery time and less frames (if I am not mistaken) for his ice ball, so Sindel can no longer zone him out with air fireball since it'd be too risky for her to get "iced" and eat a full combo. Neither Sindel or Sub-Zero want to rush each other for obvious reasons (now wake-ups are faster and have more invencibility than before - THANK LORD) so between them is a zoning war and this time I believe Sub-Zero may have more advantage. I believe they're 5-5 now.

I actually did not play patched Sindel, but from what I could see she's a HELL lot better than before and, even so, she's still low tier which means the roster is more balanced now than ever.

Older top-tier characters like Nightwolf, Shang Tsung or Ermac have fallen over the time in the list but, yes, me too, as a Ermac player agree with his position. Ermac has NO mix-up options. Absolutely no overheads and his unblockables are too unsafe. What saves him is his wake-up potential, great zoning and his great damage output. Playing Ermac is being a punish beast, you have to wait for your opponent to make a mistake, it'd be suicidal to play close with Ermac since the recovery time for his specials are unsafe. I still think he's a great character though.
 
Voncroy, that's only his EX Slide. That requires two bars. Apart from that, Sindel has everything she needs to outzone him. She is arguably closer to him in close combat stats now as well. Even IF he Ex Slides through one of her EX low fireballs, he is still going to eat 15% damage.

EDIT: Cyrax shouldn't be at the top anymore either.
 
Voncroy, that's only his EX Slide. That requires two bars. Apart from that, Sindel has everything she needs to outzone him. She is arguably closer to him in close combat stats now as well. Even IF he Ex Slides through one of her EX low fireballs, he is still going to eat 15% damage.

EDIT: Cyrax shouldn't be at the top anymore either.

yes he should did you not watch Tony-T's new combo video?

he still has 70% combos, and now has better mix ups. If anything he got buffed
 
Voncroy, that's only his EX Slide. That requires two bars. Apart from that, Sindel has everything she needs to outzone him. She is arguably closer to him in close combat stats now as well. Even IF he Ex Slides through one of her EX low fireballs, he is still going to eat 15% damage.
To me, it comes down to what type of play style both character do. It's incredible the buffs Sub-Zero had (and some of his fans complained about his minor nerfs).

EDIT: Cyrax shouldn't be at the top anymore either.
From what I read in the patch notes and what I've seen from him in XBox online games, I disagree. Cyrax still has the biggest combo damage potential in the game, he still has an unescapable bomb reset. If they took from his second net, the bomb "reset" (which is really not a reset - I know that) is still there and he can safely do an over 20% combo you cannot avoid unless you break it. All he needs is you to be caught in one of those nets. It's crazy to think Cyrax fans actually complain about the nerfs, he seems to be a solid top-tier even post-patched. To me, he began as a broken character and honestly? It didn't go that much better. I won't complain though, it was how Cyrax was meant to be.
 
yes he should did you not watch Tony-T's new combo video?

he still has 70% combos, and now has better mix ups. If anything he got buffed

I've just watched the video this second.

Christ, is that hard to simply remove his nets once you've been captured by one and the combo begins? How is it, Sindel grounds an opponent if she attempts to relaunch after a reset, but Cyrax continues like the Energiser Bunny?

Maybe i've just got used to fight Cyrax which is why I don't think he is a threat anymore.
 
And he got buffed Flagg. He still can do high damage combos and, if he wasn't already good enough, they gave him an overhead buzzsaw and more recovery time for it! It's crazy. No wonder he's now considered #1 in tier list above Kung Lao and Raiden.
 
I was going to stop reading when I saw "Tom Brady", but then I thought "no, I'm being stupid. He must have made something very good this time, after all the others... let's see..." and then I see Sheeva is above Noob Saibot. *yao ming*
 
I was going to stop reading when I saw "Tom Brady", but then I thought "no, I'm being stupid. He must have made something very good this time, after all the others... let's see..." and then I see Sheeva is above Noob Saibot. *yao ming*

that's mainly because Noob saibot hurts really bad from basically having almost just a PURE zoning game. He hasn't been doing good at top level competitive play.

Sheeva now has a good defense/offensive traps/alright zoning game. She's become more well rounded while all they did was just make Noob's zone game better. He still gets raped upclose. Though not as bad with his buff pokes.
 
that's mainly because Noob saibot hurts really bad from basically having almost just a PURE zoning game. He hasn't been doing good at top level competitive play.

Sheeva now has a good defense/offensive traps/alright zoning game. She's become more well rounded while all they did was just make Noob's zone game better. He still gets raped upclose. Though not as bad with his buff pokes.

Noob's Black hole resets are more than enough to win without zoning, plus, his shadow upknee helps A LOT with pressure. I don't get what you mean by "raped upclose". Sheeva is too slow. And alright zoning game? Her fireball is too damn slow and easily jumped over. What saves sheeva are her low starters and overheads.
 
Noob's Black hole resets are more than enough to win without zoning, plus, his shadow upknee helps A LOT with pressure. I don't get what you mean by "raped upclose". Sheeva is too slow. And alright zoning game? Her fireball is too damn slow and easily jumped over. What saves sheeva are her low starters and overheads.
No, it's not just that that saves Sheeva. She has armor for literally EVERY enhanced move she has. Once she catches Noob from her enhanced grab she even has a free hit from ground stomp which you cannot avoid (over 30% on that alone, it's sick). She has so much damage output that she can severely punish a blocked Noob Saibot teleport with an over 30% combos.

Also, her fireball hits mid and her enhanced fireball (which has armor) hits overheads and pushes you away. Jump over it and you rish yourself to be caught by her anti-air grabs which also deals a lot of damage. Duck and she catches you with her low grab and she can punish you with a full 40% meterless combo.

I still think Noob Saibot is one of Sheeva's worst match-ups though, but I too agree now she's more well-rounded than him and excels him in many ways - power damage (waaay better than Noob), mix-up options and a great tele stomp, which you can control at your will and even has hyper armor for its enhanced version.
 
@Voncroy, I find Raiden and Derp Lao just a chore to play now, but for some reason I find a real challenge in playing a good Cyrax.

However I would say, that this is FAR TOO EARLY for even TB and REO to be making such sweeping statements. One week after the XBL Patch? I suspect that neither of them really uses the characters they've dropped at the bottom. Jade didn't exactly change much, but how is she now considered the worst? And Sindel probably got the BEST BUFFS out of her, Baraka, Stryker and Sheeva, yet she is still considered bottom?

I find it ludicrous that Smoke of all characters is above Nightwolf, Scorpion, Johnny Cage, Sektor, Shang Tsung, Sonya, Sektor....I could go on and on.

@Wraith, im not sure if Sheeva should be that high but she has some really good buffs now. Armour on ex telestomp and her fireballs are now overheads. They even made her anti-air grab faster, though i WISH low grab was faster!!!!! It's hard to catch savvy people unless you go meaty, and even then it sometimes whiffs!
 
No, it's not just that that saves Sheeva. She has armor for literally EVERY enhanced move she has. Once she catches Noob from her enhanced grab she even has a free hit from ground stomp which you cannot avoid (over 30% on that alone, it's sick). She has so much damage output that she can severely punish a blocked Noob Saibot teleport with an over 30% combos.

Also, her fireball hits mid and her enhanced fireball (which has armor) hits overheads and pushes you away. Jump over it and you rish yourself to be caught by her anti-air grabs which also deals a lot of damage. Duck and she catches you with her low grab and she can punish you with a full 40% meterless combo.

I still think Noob Saibot is one of Sheeva's worst match-ups though, but I too agree now she's more well-rounded than him and excels him in many ways - power damage (waaay better than Noob), mix-up options and a great tele stomp, which you can control at your will and even has hyper armor for its enhanced version.

EVERY enhanced move she uses costs bars of meters. I do believe you CAN avoid the ground stomp after the enhanced grab (which again, uses meter) with a wakeup attack. She can punish Noob's teleport well enough, and that's why you don't teleport against her so often if you have half a brain or so.

Noob's Shadow Charge also hits mid and his enhanced slide pulls you toward him, helping with zoning Sheevas (which I still haven't saw anywhere). She cannot grab noob if he jumps if she is ZONING him and throwing fireballs from the other side of the screen. Her low grab is ridiculously slow AND has a small range. Noob can duck and poke the hell out of her with no punishment whatsoever.

She has more damage than Noob, yes, but noob's power is not in high damage combos. It is in his various medium damage combos and mind game. He also excels her in speed greatly. Her telestomp can be avoided by shadow upknee and it's all about guessing game.

And the list goes on.
 
@Voncroy, I find Raiden and Derp Lao just a chore to play now, but for some reason I find a real challenge in playing a good Cyrax.

However I would say, that this is FAR TOO EARLY for even TB and REO to be making such sweeping statements. One week after the XBL Patch? I suspect that neither of them really uses the characters they've dropped at the bottom. Jade didn't exactly change much, but how is she now considered the worst? And Sindel probably got the BEST BUFFS out of her, Baraka, Stryker and Sheeva, yet she is still considered bottom?

I find it ludicrous that Smoke of all characters is above Nightwolf, Scorpion, Johnny Cage, Sektor, Shang Tsung, Sonya, Sektor....I could go on and on.

@Wraith, im not sure if Sheeva should be that high but she has some really good buffs now. Armour on ex telestomp and her fireballs are now overheads. They even made her anti-air grab faster, though i WISH low grab was faster!!!!! It's hard to catch savvy people unless you go meaty, and even then it sometimes whiffs!

Yeah, I know man. Sheeva is getting decent. Just that. But I don't think she is above Noob or some other characters just because she has some high damage 3 hit combos, 50/50 telestomps and armor on enhanced moves. She needs more than that. :/
 
@Voncroy, I find Raiden and Derp Lao just a chore to play now, but for some reason I find a real challenge in playing a good Cyrax.
I actually have the same opinion. I play Nightwolf and know that dude and his match-ups to the core and I believe he is 5-5 against Cyrax. The fact is that Nightwolf can build meter like crazy by using reflector against Cyrax nets. The funny thing is that he cannot reflect the net itself but it builds meter for him much faster than the net does for Cyrax. That meter is to be used for his enhanced shoulder which crosses everything - bombs, net and saws - and puts Cyrax right where he belongs. Nightwolf kills Cyrax up close, Cyrax has very unsafe strings while Nightwolf is almost over-safe, you cannot punish Nightwolf on block and that why Nightwolf's considered high tier. Yet, you cannot play zoning games with him. But I love that challenge, it makes me sweat everytime I fight good Cyrax. I just feel it's crazy he has an inescapable bomb and still punish you hard.

To me, I find equally crazy the recovery time or the almost absense of frames (LOL seriously) for Kabal's fireballs. It's crazy. Even yesterday, I was playing against this Kabal and I jumped and punched him and somehow - GOD KNOWS HOW - he had the time to throw me a fireball AFTER I punched him LOL It's crazy. I still beat that Kabal player, and he beat me too. It was an even match, but yeah, he builds meter as fast as rabbits reproduce.

I find it ludicrous that Smoke of all characters is above Nightwolf, Scorpion, Johnny Cage, Sektor, Shang Tsung, Sonya, Sektor....I could go on and on.
I confess I don't play Smoke anymore and don't even his buffs now so I cannot comment on that, but it was surprising to say the least.
 
Kabal is RIDICULOUS! He is a better zoner than, the three zoners, namely Sindel, Noob and Shang. He also has a up close game that is only surpassed by Cage.

This is where tier lists play their part, because if im Sindel or Sheeva, beating Kabal is VERY HARD. Baraka fairs a bit better, his Ex blade charge covers those dumb projectiles and he has quite a damaging close game. And it's left to Nightwolf, and even then, it's a battle.

I definitely agree that Kabal should be at the top, but some of those other tiers are questionable.
 
Kabal is RIDICULOUS! He is a better zoner than, the three zoners, namely Sindel, Noob and Shang. He also has a up close game that is only surpassed by Cage.
Kabal has literally NO bad match-ups. Even hat tiers have their own bad match-ups (Kung Lao against Kitana or Raiden against Reptile), but the same doesn't happen to Kabal. From my experience, great zoners like Sindel, Noob Saibot or Shang Tsung don't have nearly as much priority as Kabal does. He can throw a fireball or a saw so damn fast it gains priority over ANYONE! Shang Tsung, who can actually beat Noob Saibot zoning from distance, can't do a shit against Kabal. Sindel who has a great air control cannot even hit Kabal in time because of his super speed air fireball. Kabal's ground is damn fast you don't have any priority if it's used as wake up and WORST neither Nightwolf or Kenshi can reflect it! I mean what the ****? It SHOULD be reflectable. There's no reason to not be reflectable. And even worst Kabal is the character in MK9 who builds meter faster - even faster than a special-move based character like Shang Tsung - because Kabal's recovery time from his fireball is so insane you can build easily 3 meter bars in a match alone.

I definitely agree that Kabal should be at the top, but some of those other tiers are questionable.
I still put Cyrax, Kung Lao, Raiden, Kabal and Reptile as top-tiers along with Kabal. It's the rest below that may be questionable.
 
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