Transgender roles in soceity

[Viking_Poodle]

The way I see it, the contest is called Ms. Universe for a reason.. It's meant for women. I have nothing against the trans-gender folk, but the way I've always seen it is that the contest was meant for women (not women who were once men). I just think it'd be weird if a trans won that specific contest or any contest with the prefix "Ms" in it regardless of their current sex. The ANTM thing is another thing. That's just modeling.

[de_nhoj]

The reason people are even having a discussion about this isn't because whether or not its fair or not to include transwomen in a beauty pageant--a pageant they would already be at a disadvantage in due to bias--(something you seem to be opposed to on principle), but rather to examine the issues of social equality and integration facing the transgendered.

In case you were unaware this very thread was created due in large part to a beauty pageant's controversial flip-flopping on the issue of whether or not to include a transgendered lady in the competition so this couldn't get any more relevant to the thread. On top of that you'd also have to have forgotten the fact that the arguing over whether not to include trans people in pageants started long before me (hell, even you argued over this before I even entered the discussion in this thread) so stop trying to blame me for derailing the thread.

[Freyith]

Nowhere did I accuse you of derailing the thread. Don't like my opinion? Deal with it.

The way I see it, the contest is called Ms. Universe for a reason.. It's meant for women. I have nothing against the trans-gender folk, but the way I've always seen it is that the contest was meant for women (not women who were once men). I just think it'd be weird if a trans won that specific contest or any contest with the prefix "Ms" in it regardless of their current sex. The ANTM thing is another thing. That's just modeling.

Transgendered women are women. And that's the point really. If you can't equate a transgendered woman to a cisgendered woman as having equal claim to that gender role and sex, than that's your failing and not theirs.

I'll definitely say that this thread has been pretty useful in weeding out whose opinions I should pay far less attention to. What a disappointment.

[back,back,back,low punch]

I find there is a big difference between cross dressers & trannies.


Tranny?
You go girl, power to you.



Cross dresser?
Lol. Either go hard or go home. Halfassers get no love.

[Viking_Poodle]

Transgendered women are women. And that's the point really. If you can't equate a transgendered woman to a cisgendered woman as having equal claim to that gender role and sex, than that's your failing and not theirs.

Yep. Because no matter what, at some point in time they were a man. Yeah sure, they've felt like they should be a woman, but they're not. It's all well and good for them to go and do it, but in my eyes they're still a man. I know this personally because a very close cousin of mine went through with the surgery. I like him no less, but I still see him as a man, because I've known him as a man.

I'll definitely say that this thread has been pretty useful in weeding out whose opinions I should pay far less attention to. What a disappointment.

And hey, buddy, why don't you take your own advice :

Don't like my opinion? Deal with it.

[Freyith]

Yep. Because no matter what, at some point in time they were a man. Yeah sure, they've felt like they should be a woman, but they're not. It's all well and good for them to go and do it, but in my eyes they're still a man. I know this personally because a very close cousin of mine went through with the surgery. I like him no less, but I still see him as a man, because I've known him as a man.



And hey, buddy, why don't you take your own advice :

I intend to. The loss sure as hell isn't mine.

And with that, I'm washing my hands of this thread, and some of the people in it.

[de_nhoj]

I'll definitely say that this thread has been pretty useful in weeding out whose opinions I should pay far less attention to. What a disappointment.

So you're basically saying the only opinions worth listening to is from people who share your opinions...

[Araknyd_Commander]

I intend to. The loss sure as hell isn't mine.

And with that, I'm washing my hands of this thread, and some of the people in it.

Ending a friendship because some people don't agree with each other?

[The Marshall]

I'm sorry but you can't be a man, have a "sex change" and then be a woman or vise versa

That shit doesn't fly with me. No man in here would date a "girl" who used to have a dick.

Fuk that, they shouldn't let them be in miss universe or whatever. If they want have some Ms. Tranny awards or something

[Sky Valley]

as long as things dont get to politically correct and places are required for you to go through a long legal process and prove what your gender is and everyone is assumed transgendered untill proven.

but that would never happen. So yeah, I say you can be whatever you want.

[CF7]

(...) Maybe you want trans people to have their own competitions? A 'separate but equal' system, eh?

...in fact, there is one. And the wannabe Ms Universe participated there one or two years prior.

And there is the dilemma.

[Eks]

Where did I ignore it? I specifically said that Ms. Araujo made some bad decisions. If you want to distort my (admittedly unpopular) position, at least say something I could have plausibly implied. And even so, lying isn't something people should punish with violent death.

Intentionally misleading them by saying she was on her period wasn't just a "bad decision", and only an extremely biased person would minimize her role like you are. Even so, we both agree that she shouldn't have been killed for her dishonesty, so let's move on.

I wasn't speaking of the repercussions of their acts. I said, and quite specifically too, that it doesn't serve proper justice to allow for a gay-panic/trans-panic argument. Judges regularly throw out defense (or prosecutorial) arguments they believe do not adhere to the constrictions of the justice system of their jurisdiction. Legitimizing the gay/trans-panic defense by allowing it to be heard in front of jurors only reinforces the negativity surrounding trans and gay people, and opens the door to a less discerning jury accepting it as a reasonable motive for killing someone.

Being disgusted and freaking out because you've just found out you were given a BJ by a male is perfectly normal since most of us aren't conditioned to tolerate that sort of thing. Besides, the problem isn't that they panicked, it was the extremity of their actions that was the real problem. The legal system doesn't want civilians taking the law into their own hands, and the Constitution sort of forbids it since it promises a fair trial for people who violate the law.

With that in mind, how should they have reacted? We agree that she was wrong, so, assuming her attackers took legal action instead of killing her, how could they have handled it? Are there laws that are designed to discourage transgendered people from doing what she did? If we (straight people) are to respect the personal rights of transgendered people to live as they please, they have to respect our right to know who we're having sex with.

I'd love to know how it keeps their profit margins high. Nobody seems to be fleeing/voting with their wallets from companies who keep mum on these misguided social engineering attempts. Let's not delude ourselves.

Forget it. Dunno why even bothered to argue that shit. Target for using their clout to meddle in things they have no business meddling in.

I said that in large part, there is little social acceptance. There are great strides to be made still in that direction. I don't think there's a 'switch' like you said that can change things. In fact, everything I've said until this point argues the exact opposite: there is still a long, hard road fraught with challenges ahead of transgendered people in joining the ranks of regular society, and that likely in neither of our lifetimes will it be 'OK' to the public at large for someone to be trans. People wouldn't be getting disowned by their families, fired from their jobs, barred from insurance coverage, beaten, raped, or killed if it were. Apparently though, that's not a problem, so long as a trans person isn't beaten in broad daylight, we're doing great.

Actually, you said "I still think we're ages away from a day where transgendered people can find even a modicum of acceptance without stealth", but whatever. I seriously doubt we'll ever see the day where openly trans people are seen as equals by most of society simply because it's such a small part of the population. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be or that activism is useless, but it's like throwing a pebble into the ocean.

I would've gotten back to this sooner, but real life got in the way.

[Jade]

I'm sorry but you can't be a man, have a "sex change" and then be a woman or vise versa

That shit doesn't fly with me. No man in here would date a "girl" who used to have a dick.

Fuk that, they shouldn't let them be in miss universe or whatever. If they want have some Ms. Tranny awards or something

I don't care personally who wants to be in these pageants but let's think about this for a moment....what if a woman who was actually born a woman wanted to enter a transgendered contest? Makes no sense, I know, but let's just say. Do you think the transgendered community would let them in or would they say it is THEIR contest meant for THEIR community?

It's like the gay pride parade. God forbid there was a straight pride parade because that would be homophobic but it is totally cool to have pride in being gay. White history month? OMG HOW RACIST.

This world just caters to the minority. Not saying all straight people or white people should run around and gloat about who they are, just saying that minorities are put on a pedestal while everyone else needs to STFU about being proud of who they are because it will be deemed homophobic or racist.

[Eks]

Real women don't really look like the uppity b***hes in those pageants and if you lose at being a woman to a (former) man, I really have to question your womanliness.

[Jade]

Imagine really being a woman and the crowd is guessing man?


LOLOLOLOL


But, seriously, some look more like women than real women do.

[Kzaoo]

Haha, that's funny.

[Critical-Limit]

I'm sorry but you can't be a man, have a "sex change" and then be a woman or vise versa

That shit doesn't fly with me. No man in here would date a "girl" who used to have a dick.

Fuk that, they shouldn't let them be in miss universe or whatever. If they want have some Ms. Tranny awards or something

lol you're wrong.

I already said once I think I could handle that sort of info if I dated someone and they use to be a dude.

I don't care personally who wants to be in these pageants but let's think about this for a moment....what if a woman who was actually born a woman wanted to enter a transgendered contest? Makes no sense, I know, but let's just say. Do you think the transgendered community would let them in or would they say it is THEIR contest meant for THEIR community?

It's like the gay pride parade. God forbid there was a straight pride parade because that would be homophobic but it is totally cool to have pride in being gay. White history month? OMG HOW RACIST.

This world just caters to the minority. Not saying all straight people or white people should run around and gloat about who they are, just saying that minorities are put on a pedestal while everyone else needs to STFU about being proud of who they are because it will be deemed homophobic or racist.

Yeah I hate positive minority group things. Unless they are being "shut out" by the community. It's good to get together to see your REAL numbers, and know you're not alone.

I didn't realize I'm pretty much a libertarian until pretty recently. Until sort of recently I didn't really realize why I hated the government and socialistic views. and anytime someone asked me for another way to deal with socialistic views I had no answer or it sounded "Unfair and immoral" when infact it really isn't.

If I hadn't joined meet up groups and seen the numbers certain libertarians are able to pull to meetings. I would have felt pretty alone in my view of freedom.


Anyways that's my 2 cents. You should look at the individual and minority groups shouldn't get "benefits" for being minority. They should be protected, but not given benefits.

I'll definitely say that this thread has been pretty useful in weeding out whose opinions I should pay far less attention to. What a disappointment.

That doesn't mean someone's opinion elsewhere isn't very valid.

This is reminding me of the cars thread where you told me I have no taste in cars. Could you imagine if you applied that logic to everything involving fashion just because someone didn't agree with me on the way I like my cars to look?

"I'm getting a new dress guys! take a look!"

*Critical gives opinion*

*Ignores Critical's opinion because his taste in cars is disgusting"

Viking Poodle could have the best view points on everything else, and you're gonna ignore his posts just because of the issue in this thread?



If I had that sort of mentality I wouldn't be able to communicate with most of the world because majority of people are religious. Just because I think their view of how the world works is kind of ridiculous, They could very well give me great tips on being healthy, agree on political views, Perhaps give me pointers on how to fix my car. Ect ect ect.

[The Marshall]

I don't care personally who wants to be in these pageants but let's think about this for a moment....what if a woman who was actually born a woman wanted to enter a transgendered contest? Makes no sense, I know, but let's just say. Do you think the transgendered community would let them in or would they say it is THEIR contest meant for THEIR community?

It's like the gay pride parade. God forbid there was a straight pride parade because that would be homophobic but it is totally cool to have pride in being gay. White history month? OMG HOW RACIST.

This world just caters to the minority. Not saying all straight people or white people should run around and gloat about who they are, just saying that minorities are put on a pedestal while everyone else needs to STFU about being proud of who they are because it will be deemed homophobic or racist.

100% agreed....

lol you're wrong.

I already said once I think I could handle that sort of info if I dated someone and they use to be a dude.