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Thread: New Tier List post patch

  1. #41
    Emperor of Outworld Critical-Limit's Avatar
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Wraith View Post
    Noob's Black hole resets are more than enough to win without zoning, plus, his shadow upknee helps A LOT with pressure. I don't get what you mean by "raped upclose". Sheeva is too slow. And alright zoning game? Her fireball is too damn slow and easily jumped over. What saves sheeva are her low starters and overheads.
    Sorry if I wasn't clear, But those black hole resets aren't guaranteed. It's a 50/50 trap. And that's assuming your opponent doesn't know how to block high >.>.

    I'm not saying Noob is garbage. but I can sorta see how with sheeva's new buffs how she can be alot more scary now. More so than noob saibot. Noob has too many strong counters against him, while with sheeva's buffs on paper, she should be able to handle almost all matchups alright now.

    Jade is bottom crap tier and she counters noob saibot.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Wraith View Post
    Yeah, I know man. Sheeva is getting decent. Just that. But I don't think she is above Noob or some other characters just because she has some high damage 3 hit combos, 50/50 telestomps and armor on enhanced moves. She needs more than that. :/
    yeah that's why she still isn't a top tier. Noob however... just like you said.. Zoning... he needs more than that.


    @voncroy, I still think Noobs zoning game is better than kabals.... in a noob vs Kabal fight. But vs everyone else, Kabal might have an upperhand considering he can full combo punish on reaction when he anti airs you with his gas mask blast move. Noob just knocks you down and sets you up for another shadow.

    This wasn't a Sheeva vs noobsaibot argument just so you guys know...
    I thought we were regarding their placings which doesn't always regard in them fighting eachother. It's even dangerous to block against sheeva? I remember someone telling me there are times it's best to take damage than to block against some of her attacks because she hurts you MORE if you don't eat it. I don't know what the trick is maybe you sheeva mains know what i'm referring to.

    Also... Jade moved down... cuz everyone else moved up it's simple really. Jade didn't get any useful buffs. like... not enough to jump her a tier. Infact alot of jades I've been talking to consider her nerfed.

  2. #42
    Tarkatan Warrior The_Wraith's Avatar
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    It's a 50/50 trap. And that's assuming your opponent doesn't know how to block high >.>.

    If you block high, the shadow will actually PUSH you to the black hole. The only ways to escape are doing SOME wakeup attacks in the very right time or rolling back and jumping above the shadow.

    And Jade only counters Noob's shadows, and that's not the way he is supposed to play if the guy using him is at least decent. I always pressure with Noob and it works fairly well against everyone. Even Sheeva. :/

    I think zoning with noob can be REALLY stupid, boring and ineffective.

  3. #43
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    Quote Originally Posted by Critical-Limit View Post
    Sorry if I wasn't clear, But those black hole resets aren't guaranteed. It's a 50/50 trap. And that's assuming your opponent doesn't know how to block high >.>.

    I'm not saying Noob is garbage. but I can sorta see how with sheeva's new buffs how she can be alot more scary now. More so than noob saibot. Noob has too many strong counters against him, while with sheeva's buffs on paper, she should be able to handle almost all matchups alright now.

    Jade is bottom crap tier and she counters noob saibot.



    yeah that's why she still isn't a top tier. Noob however... just like you said.. Zoning... he needs more than that.


    @voncroy, I still think Noobs zoning game is better than kabals.... in a noob vs Kabal fight. But vs everyone else, Kabal might have an upperhand considering he can full combo punish on reaction when he anti airs you with his gas mask blast move. Noob just knocks you down and sets you up for another shadow.

    This wasn't a Sheeva vs noobsaibot argument just so you guys know...
    I thought we were regarding their placings which doesn't always regard in them fighting eachother. It's even dangerous to block against sheeva? I remember someone telling me there are times it's best to take damage than to block against some of her attacks because she hurts you MORE if you don't eat it. I don't know what the trick is maybe you sheeva mains know what i'm referring to.

    Also... Jade moved down... cuz everyone else moved up it's simple really. Jade didn't get any useful buffs. like... not enough to jump her a tier. Infact alot of jades I've been talking to consider her nerfed.
    Critical, with Sheeva, what people are refering to is her 2, 1, 2, 1 pressure game.

    For example, she can go 2, 1, 2, F1...and the last hit is an overhead (also canceable into a walk and grab).

    Or she can go for a 2, 1, 2, B1, for a low last hit.

    However, if someone is blocking low, you can go, 2, 1, 2 cancel into low grab, for a massive combo.

    Also, even if they block her 2, 1, 2, F1, walk and grab, the grab is safe on block.

    Sheeva has a move that literally counters everything in the game, however she is a bit like Jade, I find her strength is in punishing people, and if Sheeva punishes, she punishes hard, and you can easily get 30, 40, 50% combos using just one or two bars. She even has a mid screen combo that does about 49% WITHOUT any meter.

    You can see why, Sheeva is a bit of a sleeping giant now.

  4. #44
    Emperor of Outworld Critical-Limit's Avatar
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Wraith View Post
    It's a 50/50 trap. And that's assuming your opponent doesn't know how to block high >.>.

    If you block high, the shadow will actually PUSH you to the black hole. The only ways to escape are doing SOME wakeup attacks in the very right time or rolling back and jumping above the shadow.

    And Jade only counters Noob's shadows, and that's not the way he is supposed to play if the guy using him is at least decent. I always pressure with Noob and it works fairly well against everyone. Even Sheeva. :/
    No I mean block the combo high to begin with. To even START that combo your oppponent has to block low, or take a hit from you while in lag from histun or lag from performing a whiffed move.

    It's a 50/50 because they can roll out.

    to avoid the roll out you back dash with Noob saibot to make them roill into the hole.(Cuz they can't roll away already full screen)
    but.. if you back dash. you don't have a shadow on screen in time to push them into the hole.

    I partially main Noob saibot man... and I go to offline tournaments/study the competitive scene.

    Noob is just suffering because his strength is his zone game. his upclose game is pretty garbage outside of pokes. He has horrible wakeups if your opponent knows how to time anything. Noob has "ok" mix ups now with his new overhead shadow. But people will actually have advantage on you if you hit them with a low slide up close unless you EX it. So upclose slide isn't much of a mix up. Sneaky saibot string is like his only low string no? And it just leads to whoopdee doo 1 hit. Although you are put in a favorable position. As long as your opponent blocks high MOST of the time. you won't nail his big damage unless you are successful in baiting him to a whiff or a punishable special.

    Jade suffers from not having a reliable overhead,
    while Noob suffers from having nothing that combos off of a low hit. The closest thing you get is a EX slide into grab.
    Last edited by Critical-Limit; 10-01-2011 at 06:19 PM.

  5. #45
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    Sheeva, Saibot, whatever.


    Sektor is still a god amongst men

  6. #46
    Emperor of Outworld Critical-Limit's Avatar
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    boy do I wish people could play crossplatform...

    So many Xbox players i'd like to play against.

  7. #47
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    Quote Originally Posted by Critical-Limit View Post
    boy do I wish people could play crossplatform...

    So many Xbox players i'd like to play against.
    I'm buying a PS3 in about 2 weeks

  8. #48
    Tarkatan Warrior The_Wraith's Avatar
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    Quote Originally Posted by Critical-Limit View Post
    No I mean block the combo high to begin with. To even START that combo your oppponent has to block low, or take a hit from you while in lag from histun or lag from performing a whiffed move.

    It's a 50/50 because they can roll out.

    to avoid the roll out you back dash with Noob saibot to make them roill into the hole.(Cuz they can't roll away already full screen)
    but.. if you back dash. you don't have a shadow on screen in time to push them into the hole.

    I partially main Noob saibot man... and I go to offline tournaments/study the competitive scene.

    Noob is just suffering because his strength is his zone game. his upclose game is pretty garbage outside of pokes. He has horrible wakeups if your opponent knows how to time anything. Noob has "ok" mix ups now with his new overhead shadow. But people will actually have advantage on you if you hit them with a low slide up close unless you EX it. So upclose slide isn't much of a mix up. Sneaky saibot string is like his only low string no? And it just leads to whoopdee doo 1 hit. Although you are put in a favorable position. As long as your opponent blocks high MOST of the time. you won't nail his big damage unless you are successful in baiting him to a whiff or a punishable special.
    I think you didn't understand what combo I am referring to...

    B1, 2, 1, 3 + Black hole in front + Shadow charge, NJP, start it again. There's no need to Block Low, just hit the first hit. When you launch the black hole, you dont even have space to dash backwards with noob, cause you are fullscreen away. I don't get that part. :S

    He has horrible wakeups if your opponent knows how to time anything.

    Isn't his upknee safe on block? :S

  9. #49
    Emperor of Outworld Critical-Limit's Avatar
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Wraith View Post
    I think you didn't understand what combo I am referring to...

    B1, 2, 1, 3 + Black hole in front + Shadow charge, NJP, start it again. There's no need to Block Low, just hit the first hit. When you launch the black hole, you dont even have space to dash backwards with noob, cause you are fullscreen away. I don't get that part. :S

    He has horrible wakeups if your opponent knows how to time anything.

    Isn't his upknee safe on block? :S
    dude... If they block high all the time... how do you plan to land the combo? NOTHING in that string hits low. That's what i'm saying. That combo.. CAN ONLY be started.. by B1 or jip right? Both moves which require the opponent to either NOT be blocking, or blocking low on the jip or blocking low for some strange reason mid string pressure.

    I know the portal reset combo.

    the point inbetween blackhole and shadow charge are not garanteed. They can roll backwards out of the hole. but not if you back dash and make the full screen EDGE ON the black hole. See what I'm saying?

    His upnkee can get hit out of on it's startup frames on wake up. that's why i mentioned the "If your opponent knows how to time his moves."

    yes his upknee is safe on block btw. But i'm talking about people hitting noob saibot before the hitbox from his upknee even comes out lol.

    What i'm saying must be confusing cuz if you don't even realize i'm talking about the portal reset combo. Then I dunno lol.

    Just saying i'd have more respect for the portal reset combo... if noob had a really nice low trick he could pull off that would lead to alot of damage. which is why I mentioned EX slide into grab. If you do 2 of those in a row RIGHT when you should be doing an overhead. you might trick them into eating that combo. But as of right now... it's ALWAYS WAY SUPER SAFE to block high against noob.
    Last edited by Critical-Limit; 10-01-2011 at 06:33 PM.

  10. #50
    Tarkatan Warrior The_Wraith's Avatar
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    Quote Originally Posted by Critical-Limit View Post
    dude... If they block high all the time... how do you plan to land the combo? NOTHING in that string hits low. That's what i'm saying.

    I know the portal reset combo.

    the point inbetween blackhole and shadow charge are not garanteed. They can roll backwards out of the hole. but not if you back dash and make the full screen EDGE ON the black hole. See what I'm saying?

    His upnkee can get hit out of on it's startup frames on wake up. that's why i mentioned the "If your opponent knows how to time his moves."
    Dude, EVERY single combo in this game cannot be landed if you defend it. Isn't it obvious? You can cancel that string into slide or ex black hole to earn some damage/be safe.
    Also, I think sending shadow charge right after the portal is better than simply backing out so the portal would "fit in the screen". What if they do not roll out? Then they can safely jump over the shadow and punish you. If you simply send the charge after the portal and they roll, the only way they can escape is by jumping above it. If they do so, Noob will be on a safe distance already.

  11. #51
    Emperor of Outworld Critical-Limit's Avatar
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Wraith View Post
    Dude, EVERY single combo in this game cannot be landed if you defend it. Isn't it obvious? You can cancel that string into slide or ex black hole to earn some damage/be safe.
    Also, I think sending shadow charge right after the portal is better than simply backing out so the portal would "fit in the screen". What if they do not roll out? Then they can safely jump over the shadow and punish you. If you simply send the charge after the portal and they roll, the only way they can escape is by jumping above it. If they do so, Noob will be on a safe distance already.
    you're not getting what i'm saying...

    UPCLOSE fighters can combo off of low, or medium. And have mixups to do so.

    Noob saibot only has good damage on overhead. his lows are garbage for damage. So the fear to take a hit is not there. So your best option is to just grab or hit low SO MUCH you make them block low. Did I not mention whiff moves? Everyone can combo those that's why that's void of argument. The point is noob has no tools to break a block or mix up well enough to deal big damage upclose. your opponent has to REALLY mess up for you to land those moves.

    I'm just saying noob's upclose game doesn't have the necessary mix ups. That's why it's garbage. His only good damage output is from a jip. or a SUPER SEXILY spaced B1.

    I know they can avoid it if you back dash lol. that's why I said ur portal reset is not guaranteed. It's a 50/50 guess.

    If they roll out everytime and you refuse to back dash EVER... well then all they ever recieve is chip damage from your shadow man.

  12. #52
    Shaolin Monk Flagg's Avatar
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    Wraith, I believe what Critical is saying, is that unless Noob hits his overhead, he isn't going to get a good combo out.

    Baraka for instance can start a B3, 1...this is a low attack that can lead into a decent juggle for him. He also has 2, 1, 1+2, for an overhead, that also can lead into a decent combo. I don't use Noob, but I assume what Critical is getting at, is at best, Noob has a overhead that can lead into decent damage and that is it. His buff was strange. I mean, it would be like making Sindel have a better zoning game, which would actually suck. Why improve upon something that Noob already excels at?

    Noob is good in the corner...but to be fair, everyone is good in the corner to one degree or another.

    I used to fear Noob Saibot. Not so much now...

    Reptile and Kabal still do my head in the though.

  13. #53
    Shaolin Monk Zoidberg747's Avatar
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    I find Reptile a really easy matchup for Baraka. Kabal, Quan Chi, and Noob are the matchups I hateXD

    MK9: Baraka, Kano, Sindel
    SCV: Mitsurugi, Pyrrha Omega
    Tekken 6: Jack 6, Roger Jr.

  14. #54
    Black Dragon Recruit Voncroy's Avatar
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    Critical, about Noob and Kabal. If I am not mistaken, that match-up is in Kabal's favor (no wonder), but I can see why you say Noob has a better zoning than Kabal because Noob has more options and more powerful enhanced zoning specials - Kabal cannot build meter by constantly jumping and throw fireballs since shadow charge works as anti-air, still grounds saws may give Noob a hard time (I believe the recovery time for Kabal is shorter than Noob's but I can be wrong) and Kabal only needs one meter bar (so hard for him to get that bar isn't it? lol) to do enhanced nomad dash to go through Noob's shadows and punishing hard and do an insane pressure on Noob. So, Noob's zoning doesn't do particularly anything hard to Kabal and that's pretty much ALL Noob can do to him. Well, at least that was what I meant anyway
    Last edited by Voncroy; 10-01-2011 at 08:06 PM.

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    Black Dragon Recruit TesusJits's Avatar
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    Haha @ Jade hitting the pits of the tier list. Man oh man.

    Quote Originally Posted by back,back,back,low punch View Post
    Sektor is still a god amongst men
    A hun'rd percent troof.
    "More stealthful than the night, more deadly than the dawn!"

  16. #56
    Emperor of Outworld Critical-Limit's Avatar
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    Quote Originally Posted by Voncroy View Post
    Critical, about Noob and Kabal. If I am not mistaken, that match-up is in Kabal's favor (no wonder), but I can see why you say Noob has a better zoning than Kabal because Noob has more options and more powerful enhanced zoning specials - Kabal cannot build meter by constantly jumping and throw fireballs since shadow charge works as anti-air, still grounds saws may give Noob a hard time (I believe the recovery time for Kabal is shorter than Noob's but I can be wrong) and Kabal only needs one meter bar (so hard for him to get that bar isn't it? lol) to do enhanced nomad dash to go through Noob's shadows and punishing hard and do an insane pressure on Noob. So, Noob's zoning doesn't do particularly anything hard to Kabal and that's pretty much ALL Noob can do to him. Well, at least that was what I meant anyway
    yeah man I'm not saying noob beats kabal.

    I'm saying in a Zone game vs Zone game. Noob wins.

    In the full scale of things, kabal wins because he isn't ONLY a zoner he's a bit of everything.



    I'll shed some light on some mindgames I try on kabal.

    I duck air blasts, into shadow charge. Then I spam either another shadow charge or go for slide on his wake up. I have the tools to out projectile him.

    once he gets a bar of meter and I notice. I will go mid range of him JUST BARELY out of JiP range. And dash block back and forth a bit. when I sense a normal approach I counter accordingly. The reason I change strategy is to try and bait out his EX dash. Cuz I get a full combo punish if I call it out correctly. At full screen distance he can dash me on reaction. But mid screen he cannot. I do alot of moving around to confuse him. If I think he's gonna approach I walk backwards/dash backwards. If I think he's gonna retreat I wait til I see it then move in a bit more to keep that mid range.

    Of course I don't always make the right decision and I get hit. But I limit his options atleast a little bit.

    And then you got the dash block where you try to bait the dash he dashes but block cancels it into pressure. that's what the random back dashes/walking backwards are for. So he block cancels just barely out of range to pressure you.

    It's all annoying I got a good couple kabal players to practice with.

    his jail string is so gay lol.

    Kabal beats noob for sure, But I wanna say Noob has a better matchup vs kabal than I think Sheeva does.

    but that might be biased opinion considering I substitute noob and not sheeva so obviously my noob saibot is better.

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    Black Dragon Recruit REPTILE 0009's Avatar
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    Nice knowing that despite the nerfs, Freddy is still considered top-tier. I'll be sure to update my Freddy thread soon.


  18. #58
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    I'm kinda interested in giving Freddy a go next..

  19. #59
    Tarkatan Warrior Major Logan's Avatar
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    Kit & Mil are S- tier now. GOOD!!!!

  20. #60
    Black Dragon Recruit sub-one's Avatar
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    Re: New Tier List post patch

    is it just me or does sub-zero's uppercut seem to have been slowed down? just seems like his timing is off to me and he is my main. also raidens 334, teleport, electrocute b321 seems to have been changed when i do the teleport the electrocute barely ever connects whereas before the patch it was almost automatic. maybe i just need a new controller.

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