Mortal Kombat HD Remix with MUGEN

True although How do we know the MKAK is set totally correct? What setting would affect that anyway I set it to 4:3 in the menus. Can you do the same thing in MAME and post a screenshot? Remember the MKAK did ship with a lot of bugs which have yet to be addressed.
 
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True although How do we know the MKAK is set totally correct? What setting would affect that anyway I set it to 4:3 in the menus. Can you do the same thing in MAME and post a screenshot?

I assume they'd have some specifications from Boon/NRS, I'm sure there's many things they would've had to confirm with the original developers to ensure it was correct. As buggy as the game might be, the cancelled MKAKHD project definitely would've needed developer input and that would've passed on to the MKAK.
 
If we are making it as close to MK1 as we can, then we shouldn't be going with wide screen. That's going to cause a change in game play, like spacing, unless everything is stretched to fit.

Just came to mind..

If the proportions are correct but we add to the stage so it fills the width, the play field is changed.
 
If we are making it as close to MK1 as we can, then we shouldn't be going with wide screen. That's going to cause a change in game play, like spacing, unless everything is stretched to fit.

Just came to mind..

Yep, I know. But what can be done really. People have widescreen monitors now and expect it widescreen. The proper solution would've been to crop everything to 16:9, which would've kept the gameplay the same. Compositionally the UI would need to be a lot different though. To remain consistent then everything would need to be relative size to each other, and that would result in things like the select screen not being able to fit a full standing character. I know because I've already experimented with this.

But if everyone agrees on it then it can still be done. It would solve some problems with negative space but also create new ones, but the benefit is that the gameplay would remain the same. If you think about it, the gameplay should be the priority so this makes sense to me. I'm happy to redo the UI should you want to do this.
 
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About my MAME settings this is as best as I could come up with after futzing with it for a while. I had to turn off a couple of GL settings to get some visual glitches to go away and I reset the gamma and brightness to default settings although other than enforcing the aspect ratio and setting it to 4:3 I can't find any setting that gives it the same height as the MKAK for the select screen and the correct 4:3 aspect ratio:

Screen%20Shot%202011-11-08%20at%209.22.32%20PM.png


About the fears for widescreen I always maintained that it wont be that much wider and until one tries it out they wont know if it'll adversely affect the gameplay.. or affect it in a negative way. It'd be nice to try it first before casting judgement.

Also even if you crop it there's still going to be a wider play-field either way... like 30% wider to be exact.
 
About the fears for widescreen I always maintained that it wont be that much wider and until one tries it out they wont know if it'll adversely affect the gameplay.. or affect it in a negative way.

It will affect it, whether in a negative or positive way is irrelevant because the aim is to keep it the same. Players who know the game inside out would be particularly sensitive to this, and so it takes away authenticity. I'm not pushing for cropping to 16:9 though, just recognizing it as a logical solution. It's up to everyone to decide what they want to do. I'm just letting you guys know I'm prepared to stay on board if that's the direction you want to take.
 
Also even if you crop it there's still going to be a wider play-field either way... like 30% wider to be exact.

No there wouldn't. Everything would be the same except the height would be cropped. It's like if you booted up MK1 in mame right now, and covered up some of the top area of your screen with black tape or something.
 
OK instead of putting forth conjecture here's an example of what it would look like using the current workflow of using the raw sprites as guides and then cropping the viewport:

CROPPED.jpg


You would have to move the UI down and scale it covering more of the area where the fighters are. As you can see it's still a wider field of view you are just cutting out part of the background.
 
Don't you see that it's still physically different than before? Call me crazy but it's still a rectangle and thusly has the theoretical issue that a rectangle brings. :p
 
Don't you see that it's still physically different than before?

I'm afraid you don't understand. Like I said, cover up the top area of your screen and play. That's literally all it is. The UI would just need to be modified like resized or moved down or whatever. The gameplay would stay the same because there's the same amount of distance between the characters and to the edge of the screen. In some emulators there's an option to "smart resize" which crops to 16:9 automatically, bsnes has one so you can try that if you're still not grasping it. The distance between the character's head and the top of the screen would of course be smaller, but that's unavoidable.
 
Perhaps, and maybe it might be a good solution. On the other hand it's also what is known to as vert- in the widescreen community.
Vert- (Vertical Minus) is a scaling method common in games during CRT era before 2005 but since then it has become rather rare. In Vert- the FOV in width is fixed while the height is expandable dependent on monitor aspect ratio.[11] In a Vert- game any 4:3 resolution will always have higher and bigger field of view than any 16:10 or 16:9 resolution.
At the widescreen gaming forums vert- games are given a lower grade when it comes to widescreen compatibility. Not exactly a desirable solution but if you must then you must.

I still think increasing the horizontal FOV can work and not be a bad thing for gameplay but I have to admit that's a belief and not founded on empirical evidence.
 
Perhaps, and maybe it might be a good solution. On the other hand it's also what is known to as vert- in the widescreen community.
Not exactly a desirable solution but if you must then you must.

Well that's the route to take if we want it widescreen with the same gameplay.

Here's the three options for you guys to consider:
1. Current workflow - added width for widescreen but changed gameplay
2. 16:9 cropped - same gameplay but backgrounds and UI cropped/changed to widescreen
3. Original 4:3 - 1134x720. Everything is the same but is not widescreen.

Please share your thoughts.
 
So let's say the gameplay is changed due to the width of the screen. How do we even know that would be a negative thing until we tried it? How do we even know to what degree it'd be different and whether or not that is a bad thing? All I've seen is people say oh it'll be different in order to prevent anyone from even trying it. Different doesn't automatically imply worse.

On the other hand in vert- the characters would look bigger and I guess that's a good thing.. you win some you lose some. :p
 
So let's say the gameplay is changed due to the width of the screen. How do we even know that would be a negative thing until we tried it?

Like I said that's irrelevant. If it's not the same then it will be less authentic and less accepted.

On the other hand in vert- the characters would look bigger and I guess that's a good thing.. you win some you lose some. :p

That's right, when dealing with a conversion like this there are always consequences. There is no way to have everything, so it's just up to deciding what's more important.
 
I hate how TerryMasters seems to think if my examples aren't totally flawless then my entire argument is invalid and falls down like a house of cards. Well I'm sorry but it doesn't and my GIF's back me up on it

No they don't.

For shits and grins lets take a look at my corrected 4:3 scorpion shot compared to TerryMaster's photo lets flip back and forth shall we:

scorpion.gif


The frame isn't exactly at the same spot but it's pretty spot on so yes.. viewing the raw sprite you get a wider than you are supposed to have effect.


Really? My 4:3 arcade monitor looks like your 4:3 MAME reproduction? You don't say. Unfortunately the purpose of that picture was to debunk your lifebar theory, which I did successfully (http://www.trmk.org/forums/showthre...mix-with-MUGEN?p=460662&viewfull=1#post460662).


Let's take a look at the two rendering methods and compare them shall we:


720p "Extra Geometry" Pixel Aspect Ratio (Correct):
bi4f9v.png


720p Extra Geometry 4:3 Aspect Ratio (Incorrect):
24uw8kl.png


Overshadowed much? That's not even taking into consideration the "SNES effect" that's going on with the sprites. You're complaining that you want to make the HD version look more like what you saw through a CRT - which absolutely none of us will be playing this on. Because that was 4:3, you know what's not 4:3? The output of the arcade hardware. You know else isn't 4:3? Our widescreen HD monitors. So if the original arcade hardware didn't push a 4:3 image, and our new HD screens aren't 4:3 either... lets make it look like 4:3?

You aren't getting a "wider than supposed to" effect, you're getting the actual image. So because that's not what you saw on some borderline-flyback faulty arcade when you were five, we should make it look like that instead of utilizing the technology we have today to render this thing the way it was meant to be. The Y-Unit board's native resolution is not only what they designed the entire game around, it's what displays the actual imported graphics of the actors - properly. What happens when you take an image and squish it? It gets compressed and something, I wanna say a four letter word starting with a "d", gets lost in the process... we should totally build the entire game around that.


Timer in Native PAR (Correct):
k4eamf.png


Timer in 4:3 (Incorrect):
34skopc.png



Take a look at the four arrows. The first image shows two solid pixels highlighted in black. The second shows the exact same pixels in 4:3. Why does the 4:3 image that's squished together appear to have more pixel coverage than the native one? Because it's pushing pixels over into areas they shouldn't be in. It's not making it bigger or wider, it's overlapping and taking priority over what you should actually be seeing. On CRT's that wasn't a problem, but these aren't tubes anymore. That graphical data's gotta go somewhere, it doesn't just disappear. So your argument is to base the game off an aspect ratio of what you saw vs what was actually there when what you saw was a loss of image data.

I've proven two of your "theories" wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt, and you still argue that your "facts don't lie". If we took your word over the people who actually knew what they were talking about we'd end up with the clock at the top pixel of the screen (http://www.trmk.org/forums/showthread.php/25235-Mortal-Kombat-HD-Remix-with-MUGEN?p=460645&viewfull=1#post460645). Just because you think you know something, doesn't mean you do. And I'm not saying this angrily or mad, sure I'm being witty but only because I'm trying to drive the point across. I don't mean anything by it. Not that it's your fault, but sometimes people don't understand what you're saying unless you yell. At least that's what I'm coming to believe.
 
Like I said that's irrelevant. If it's not the same then it will be less authentic and less accepted.
Some people would say the same thing about it being made HD and not all pixelated any more... or using 3D models to render out the graphics rather than film actors... or any number of improvements that would be seen as changes.

TerryMasters.. so you just don't believe me that the OAR for the game was 4:3 and you want to do everything in your power to totally discredit me and win at all costs? Interesting assumption that I only ever saw one faulty machine or that I as five years old when I first played the game. Or even implying that I only played it at the age of five and haven't looked at it since. Look at my age... I was more like 15 when I started playing and have been playing for about 18 years. OK debunked that I guess your whole argument goes down the hole just like my "house of cards". :p

You've proved nothing except stating your opinion that corrected to 4:3 it looks wrong. So the overscan might have been a little off on the particular arcade machine I posted earlier.. big whoop. It doesn't invalidate every single thing I've said like you imply it does. I guess you would believe a squashed frame from an anamorphic film before projected through the correct lens is how that was supposed to look too. I guess the MKAK looks wrong to you too and so does your original cabinet.
 
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This is getting too complicated, I'd just go with how we were doing and leave it at that.

You can squash the screen in mugen if you don't want to see it at the raw scale. It's a quick setting, like setting the size of a Photoshop document.


In the configuration file, you have this and it doesn't have to be what's on the list, maybe that's good enough.

;Game native width and height.
;Recommended settings are:
; 640x480 Standard definition 4:3
; 1280x720 High definition 16:9
; 1920x1080 Full HD 16:9
GameWidth = 640 ; < ---------- can be something else.
GameHeight = 480
 
TerryMasters is making it far too personal for my tastes as well to be honest. I'm sorry I even started this discussion as it is much like debating politics or religion. :\ Who would have thought pixel aspect ratio (not screen such as 16:9, etc) was such a hot button subject or that I was metaphorically poking a beehive with a stick bringing it up and I'm the one who threw themselves to the wolves bringing it up. Jarvis.. be glad you didn't.

Either way the workflow is not going to change so it's a moot discussion anyway. I'm glad at least some people got my point and didn't just dismiss it offhand completely because of some nit picky details. Yeah go ahead with the current workflow especially since it's already underway. I just thought this input would have been helpful but apparently not.

Bleed, your images tend to look correct anyway and not at all stretched such as your UMK3 scorpion so long as you stick to that everything should be fine.
 
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This is getting too complicated, I'd just go with how we were doing and leave it at that.

You can squash the screen in mugen if you don't want to see it at the raw scale. It's a quick setting, like setting the size of a Photoshop document.


In the configuration file, you have this and it doesn't have to be what's on the list, maybe that's good enough.

;Game native width and height.
;Recommended settings are:
; 640x480 Standard definition 4:3
; 1280x720 High definition 16:9
; 1920x1080 Full HD 16:9
GameWidth = 640 ; < ---------- can be something else.
GameHeight = 480

I agree this is getting too complicated because I'm it's probably going to lead to in-depth discussion about how CRTs work etc.

Terry's posted some interesting evidence, I'm trying to think it all through logically but my brain is starting to hurt.
Since I didn't want to deviate from working to OPR anyway, I agree let's just keep it at that.
But Bleed what are your thoughts on cropping to 16:9 to keep the gameplay the same?
 
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