Mortal Kombat HD Remix with MUGEN

Since there doesn't seem to be much going on right now, I decided that I wanted to express my feelings about the UI. Looking back through the thread, it seems to me that badmouse's versions didn't get a fair shake. In all honesty, I loved his designs. Reading what jarvis said about badmouse's work not being high quality enough, I chuckled because that is exactly how I feel about jarvis' work. Jarvis's designs are boring, and not because of skill-limitations, but because of self-limitation.

I do not think this project can achieve it's full potential if we are simply recreating what was, and the UI is a prime example. An imitation of a design choice dictated by limited resources (original) will invariably be limited. If we don't improve, what is the point? Improvement really is the only reason to attempt this project.

Badmouse's UI was an improvement. It was visually interesting. The textures and design choices are great. The way the edge's shadows naturally draw the eye in toward the portraits was a great touch. With perhaps a round or two of critique I think those would be something really special. Again, his design wasn't just an imitation, it was an improved re-creation.

On the other hand, Jarvis's design was plain and limited. The textures were blurry, there was no visual interest, no artistic touches, and just really looked like a product of Photoshop. Frankly, I had to strain to tell the difference between Jarvis' versions, and the original. That is NOT what we should be doing. No one playing this game will say, "Wow" when that screen comes up.

I think this idea of re-creation with improvement needs to applied to all aspects of this game's development. It's exactly what Bleed has done and I think that we can all agree that he set the bar on this project. I love a lot of what has been produced thus far. Most, actually. And just like Jarvis, this is a project I have wanted to see for years. I've started a time or two but never ended up with the right people. This is a great opportunity to make something that will blow away people that think an HD MK is impossible and not worth while.

I mean no offence, Jarvis. You seem like a level-headed, cool guy. I just don't agree with your staunch penchant to duplicate the original pixel by pixel, because I don't think that is offering anything new. It's not improving. And like I said, if we aren't improving, then what's the point?

I want everyone to have fun and I want people to play this game to death. Recreating the original so closely will make people walk away after 20-30 minutes of gameplay. That's just the way it is.
 
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Hi Justin,

If you look back you'll see that it wasn't Jarvis that made the ultimate decision. You can count the votes and you'll see that most people here disagree with you. I prefer a sharpened version of the original graphics. The version that Badmouse did was grittier for sure but I and others felt that it deviated too much from the original design. If you look back far enough you can see that Jarvis did a version with cracks and extra detail but then decided to scale that back since it was starting to look overdone. Of course this is entirely subjective. What I think looks good, you might think looks terrible and vice versa.

We've discussed this many times through the course of this project and early on we decided to upgrade UI graphics only when details were fuzzy. The title screen is a perfect example. I turned the background to velvet because that is what I envision that material behind the logo should be. Some people disagreed. We started this project trying to match the original game as much as possible and only upgrading minor things here and there that we would assume were meant to be in the original.

In the case of the UI, it's entirely a matter of opinion and I disagree with you that Badmouse UI didn't get a fair shake. Read through the posts and you'll see more people like/liked Jarvis's design than Badmouse's.



Since there doesn't seem to be much going on right now, I decided that I wanted to express my feelings about the UI. Looking back through the thread, it seems to me that badmouse's versions didn't get a fair shake. In all honesty, I loved his designs. Reading what jarvis said about badmouse's work not being high quality enough, I chuckled because that is exactly how I feel about jarvis' work. Jarvis's designs are boring, and not because of skill-limitations, but because of self-limitation.

I do not think this project can achieve it's full potential if we are simply recreating what was, and the UI is a prime example. An imitation of a design choice dictated by limited resources (original) will invariably be limited. If we don't improve, what is the point? Improvement really is the only reason to attempt this project.

Badmouse's UI was an improvement. It was visually interesting. The textures and design choices are great. The way the edge's shadows naturally draw the eye in toward the portraits was a great touch. With perhaps a round or two of critique I think those would be something really special. Again, his design wasn't just an imitation, it was an improved re-creation.

On the other hand, Jarvis's design was plain and limited. The textures were blurry, there was no visual interest, no artistic touches, and just really looked like a product of Photoshop. Frankly, I had to strain to tell the difference between Jarvis' versions, and the original. That is NOT what we should be doing. No one playing this game will say, "Wow" when that screen comes up.

I think this idea of re-creation with improvement needs to applied to all aspects of this game's development. It's exactly what Bleed has done and I think that we can all agree that he set the bar on this project. I love a lot of what has been produced thus far. Most, actually. And just like Jarvis, this is a project I have wanted to see for years. I've started a time or two but never ended up with the right people.

I mean no offence, Jarvis. You seem like a level-headed, cool guy. I just don't agree with your staunch penchant to duplicate the original pixel by pixel, because I don't think that is offering anything new. It's not improving. And like I said, if we aren't improving, then what's the point?

I want everyone to have fun and I want people to play this game to death. Recreating the original so closely will make people walk away after 20-30 minutes of gameplay. That's just the way it is.
 
Again, I must ask, why bother if all you're going for is a glorified upscale? Especially if the gameplay stays true to the original. (I think it should)

Right now, the mentality you just posted about doesn't apply to the game's character models, which I would say are the core of the game in general and everything else should reflect a similar design choice.

Don't think that I'm pushing for some "dark and gritty" design philosophy. I'm not. I'm pushing for a truly modern looking improvement of the original MK. I'm asking you guys to consider a bit of an alternative approach. As I said, as of now, players won't stick with this game for that long.

Again, if you aren't improving, then what are you doing? And are you wanting people to enjoy this game?
 
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Look at Streetfighter 2 HD Remix. Would you say that game was improved beyond the original? It's the same game in HD. We're not making Mortal Kombat 10 or what Mortal Kombat 4 should have been. We're making Mortal Kombat with all it's charm, cheesiness and unrealistic graphics. Of course I want people to enjoy it, but I want it to be authentic. I want to respect the original designers vision whenever possible. It deserves that. Look at how many of us still remember it so many years later. Also the word "improve" is so subjective that it's impossible to quantify what constitutes an improvement. In my mind having the game 60 fps and in HD with "remastered" music and background graphics is a huge improvement. That's enough for me. I don't want to change the style of the graphics if I don't need to.
Look at the remastered Star Wars movies. Even slight upgrades to turn the puppets into CG or what not makes a lot of the fans angry. Also I just don't agree that Badmouse's UI was an improvement. It's just my opinion of course.
 
I'm not arguing for Badmouse's UI. I'm arguing for the choices that led to it not being used.

Street Fighter HD is a gorgeous game, and also a very different game. Street Fighter has always been a game created in the typical Anime style, so naturally the HD version continued in that respect.

Likewise, MK was a game created with a very realistic visual style. That is what brought the crowds, the attention, and the controversy. If you want authenticity, there it is. That is the thing that seperated MK, visually, from the other fighting franchises. It looked real and visceral and even scary sometimes.

Like I said, by most standards, the design choice by Jarvis with his UI is not an improvement. It is a good upscale. Bleed's work, on the other hand, is an improvement on the original sprites in almost every way.

Look at Streetfighter 2 HD Remix. Would you say that game was improved beyond the original? It's the same game in HD. We're not making Mortal Kombat 10 or what Mortal Kombat 4 should have been. We're making Mortal Kombat with all it's charm, cheesiness and unrealistic graphics. Of course I want people to enjoy it, but I want it to be authentic. I want to respect the original designers vision whenever possible. It deserves that. Look at how many of us still remember it so many years later. Also the word "improve" is so subjective that it's impossible to quantify what constitutes an improvement. In my mind having the game 60 fps and in HD with "remastered" music and background graphics is a huge improvement. That's enough for me. I don't want to change the style of the graphics if I don't need to.
Look at the remastered Star Wars movies. Even slight upgrades to turn the puppets into CG or what not makes a lot of the fans angry. Also I just don't agree that Badmouse's UI was an improvement. It's just my opinion of course.
 
I understand what you are saying, I just disagree. I won't at all deny what you've said is true about what makes MK different than Street Figher 2. But I do think sticking as close to the source material as possible was the right move for this project. We can always deviate later if that's what everyone wants. You originally said that you felt that Badmouse UI didn't get a fair shake. I disagree because we voted and that is why it changed. Also the UI screens wouldn't be the reason someone would play this for 10-20 minutes and stop. It'd be because the gameplay is changed or the novelty of hi resolution graphics has worn off. Everyone other MK fan will play this for years to come. Some purists will hate it. They'll call it crap because they can't pull off the same glitches and combos exactly the same way, but trust me the UI will not be the main reason some people will get bored of or dislike this game.
 
I want to add, that as a graphics creator, why am I spending all this time trying to build statues that look like the originals, I could easily come up with better looking statues. Buddah's hand positioning wouldn't matter in the Palace Gates either. Yet time and time again people are pointing out even minor inconsistency between what I'm doing and the original. My point is, where would 'improvement' end? We would have to vote on each and every element. The project would never get made. Why should Bleed and I (among others) be required to adhere as closely to the original's graphics as possible but with the UI suddenly we're changing things for the "better" which is entirely subjective anyway.
 
Don't underestimate the importance of UI. Presentation is huge. There isn't really a sense of grandeur and awe in Jarvis' work. Not the kind of grandeur and awe a Tournament for the fate of the earth deserves anyway. I think the original definitely wanted to evoke those senses, but couldn't very well due to technical limitations.

As far as what you and Bleed are doing goes, I think you guys are definitely on the right track. I also think that mimicking Buddah's hand positioning is charming but silly. I'd love to see your "better" version, honestly.

I can relate to your sentiments regarding working with the graphics. My audio stuff, especially the sfx, have and will be put through the ringer of "not nostalgic enough." It's partly why I'm bringing all this up.
 
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I still think the UI would be greatly improved even if you just bring more animation to it. In the original only the bios where animated but we aren't restricted by space on a ROM now so it's perfectly possible to animate the rest of the screens such as the endings and still be true to the spirit of the original. That would bring some of the awe back for me, personally speaking.

Also I agree presentation is huge and that's always been the strong point for MK in my opinion. That and the gameplay has always been a lot better than any imitation that came along.

BTW, someone like me is perfectly fine with the glitches not being the same because it along with the HD graphics will make it feel fresher. Being able to pull off a new set of combos or whatever if it's possible will be nice. For all we know we'll be able to do BETTER combos in this HD edition.

Also I'm actually liking the buddha statue the way it is.. the original was a photo of someones statue from their yard from their neighborhood.
 
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If you want to play a "remix" of Mortal Kombat, play Mortal Kombat 2011. The retelling of MK without the hardware limitations.

Everyone is doing a good job of adding their own artistic touches without straying too far from the original. I think that is how MK HD should be.
Also, like someone suggested earlier in this thread, they could put some easter eggs in there when everything else is finished. No disrespect to you Justin. I love your music btw :)
 
Thanks alot, man. And I respect your opinion, as well as everyone else's.

I must say though that MK 2011 was really more of a overall reboot that anything. It was very different in a lot of ways.


If you want to play a "remix" of Mortal Kombat, play Mortal Kombat 2011. The retelling of MK without the hardware limitations.

Everyone is doing a good job of adding their own artistic touches without straying too far from the original. I think that is how MK HD should be.
Also, like someone suggested earlier in this thread, they could put some easter eggs in there when everything else is finished. No disrespect to you Justin. I love your music btw :)
 
Thanks alot, man. And I respect your opinion, as well as everyone else's.

I must say though that MK 2011 was really more of a overall reboot that anything. It was very different in a lot of ways.

My point is, lets stick closely to the source material for the first version of this. If we're copying sound fx, music and graphics with only slight enhancements then the UI is following that philosophy.
Once we've created something close to the source material, we can certainly deviate and do new and cooler things.
 
I do hope the day comes when we can make an MK that takes some artistic licence. I think a game like that, using the same approach of 3D sprites could be a phenomenal experience to both make and play. Honestly, I'd rather do that than go right into MK2, but that prolly won't be the case, provided this game is completed.

Actually, a single game combining MK1 and 2 would be very interesting. Especially given some artistic freedom. (Nothing like MK9)

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Or better yet, something like a secret cheat code in THIS game that enables some different, non gameplay related things. Like, some new music and updated (Remixed) stages. That would certainly offer replay value. Oh, now I've got some ideas...

A hidden, alternate battleplan.

My point is, lets stick closely to the source material for the first version of this. If we're copying sound fx, music and graphics with only slight enhancements then the UI is following that philosophy.
Once we've created something close to the source material, we can certainly deviate and do new and cooler things.
 
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I kinda feel like you do Justin, but either way I think this project is really awesome! I did like badmoouse's work better.
I want it to feel very familiar yet different. so that it's like the first time again! you know what I mean?
 
Justin, I want to talk about the topic you brought up on UI. Calactyte has already made many of the points that I would've made myself, so I'll keep this brief.

Basically, the graphics in the original are cheesy and clearly a product of the 90s, but whether you like it or not, that is what makes the style of MK1. Updating it they way you're talking about would be stripping it of that style, and then it wouldn't really be MK1 anymore would it?

With my work I basically walk a line between making everything look like the original and making it look HD quality, and that can be a difficult thing to do. If I wanted to, I absolutely could make something very modern, and I can tell you it would've been be far easier than the way I did it. Calling it a glorified upscale is missing the point.

I agree however that those previous versions of the UI did indeed have problems, issues of blurriness among other things, that is why I remade them again for better quality and actually even closer to the original. What I've got now I consider the final product, and I don't think you'll be disappointed either.

I may speak more on this when I get home.
 
I'm working on Carlos again today, zbrush sculpting. I'm not ready to post but just so you guys know something is moving.
 
I'm working on Carlos again today, zbrush sculpting. I'm not ready to post but just so you guys know something is moving.

cool, cant wait to see how it turns out. As for an update in case anyone is wondering, same here, working on Sonya's face. Ended up redoing it twice (edit:worked from a higher poly face at first, for me it was easier working from a low poly with the correct edge loops and proportions then building from there.). Took the advice of setting up the edge loops first in Maya and its working much better. It's getting there, but slower than I would have wanted. But hey, as long as the final result is worth it! And also since I've been checking a bit about better ways of making hair, subsurface scattering and whatnot.
 
Jarvis, I've already relegated my ideas to the possibility of another project. I still disagree with the design philosophy of making an essentially non-pixelated version of MK1, but will leave that at the door because I know I'm in the minority. This is a fundamental difference of opinion, so it may show it's head again before the project is complete.

Ever since UMK3, I've been of the opinion that MK has never come close to reaching it's potential. I feel that Ed Boon chose an entirely different route since becoming Creative Director and hasn't looked back since. I loved Vincent Proce's unused work and felt that he was much closer to "getting" what MK always was to me. Not spot on, but close.

I want to see this unexplored avenue much more than I want to re-play essentially the same MK1 I reluctantly bought with the Arcade Kollection. It broke my heart when they cancelled the "HD" part of that project, as the screen shots showed that they were onto to something special. Also, I thought all of the UI for that was and is fantastic, and I don't think that it "stripped" any of the MK style away. Quite the opposite.

I've talked enough about this, I think. I do however ask that you guys consider including something to freshen up this game's experience. I think that the above suggestion I made is something to think about.

@prstyles27, yeah. I feel ya, man.

@Bleed and Demonseed, I'm psyched to see what you guys will come up with!

Justin, I want to talk about the topic you brought up on UI. Calactyte has already made many of the points that I would've made myself, so I'll keep this brief.

Basically, the graphics in the original are cheesy and clearly a product of the 90s, but whether you like it or not, that is what makes the style of MK1. Updating it they way you're talking about would be stripping it of that style, and then it wouldn't really be MK1 anymore would it?

With my work I basically walk a line between making everything look like the original and making it look HD quality, and that can be a difficult thing to do. If I wanted to, I absolutely could make something very modern, and I can tell you it would've been be far easier than the way I did it. Calling it a glorified upscale is missing the point.

I agree however that those previous versions of the UI did indeed have problems, issues of blurriness among other things, that is why I remade them again for better quality and actually even closer to the original. What I've got now I consider the final product, and I don't think you'll be disappointed either.

I may speak more on this when I get home.
 
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