Religion

[Flagg]

I agree with Foxes points on this subject AND the subject of abortion.

I've spent the last 4 years studying biology, evolution, ecology, geology, chemistry and other varying scientific subjects. Im quite clued up on this, and people that say "evolution has holes in it" INFURIATE ME because they simply refuse to believe in completely natural processes. If there are any evolutionary doubters, naysayers, I defy them to point out what is wrong and I will personally educate them here.

As for God. Ugh....

Lets see. Modern man has been around for some 60,000 years, generally agreed by most. You're talking about times when the average human lifespan was some 20 years old, humans dying from the elements, childbirth, predation, disease....and that a God would watch this species, suffering for 10's of thousands of years..only to come forward 10,000 years ago, intervene...but not everywhere. He obviously thought the Chinese and Aborigines would eventually find out somehow. To then have a only Son to then watch him get ripped to shreds in a part of Bronze Age Palestine...it simply cannot be believed and I find it very hard to understand how any rational human being would believe that two humans were made from the mud in the ground and that two humans alone are enough to completely start the human race.

God is all powerful! He is omnipotent! There is nothing He cannot do right? Okay, so can God create a boulder that nothing else in existence could lift. If the answer is yes (he is all powerful after all!), does that apply to Him? Because if God cannot lift that boulder, then he is not all powerful. Alternatively, if He can lift it, He hasnt created a boulder than nothing in existence could lift. That is what is known as The God Paradox.

I keep reading people say "i was raised a Roman Catholic so im religious"

I mean, is that it? Is that all it takes? So if you were born in Israel, you'd have been a Jew. India, a hindu, Afghanistan a muslim or if you were born in Papau New Guinea, you'd have worshipped the sun. Can people not see how absurd religion is.

At the end of the day, humans are STILL afraid of the dark. Because of what it represents. And that is why there is religion. People are afraid of dying.

[kodkilla]

I am an Athiest, but I am embaressed by alot of them to be honest.
which is strange because you would think I would be all for people who share my views, but the truth is I dont care for alot of athiests. As alot of them are bitter hypocrites...

Hahaha, so true so very very true. These people make me ashamed to call myself an atheist.

I grew up in a Christan family, one that stopped going to church when I was 6-7, and I "lost faith" around 13 or so. I started really thinking about it, reading arguments for and against, and came to the conclusion that God doesn't exist. For me, science (specifically Biology) has all the answers I need. You ask me about different skin colors, I tell you about melanin, it's relation to the sun and geography. Ask me about evolution, I tell you about the change in average height in the past 200 years. Ask me about how "perfect eyes" are, I'll throw my glasses at you (for comic effect). Ask me about the moon, the sun, the stars and how they got here and I'll try and not **** up (never said I was an expert) in telling you plausible theories on the matter. My point is that, for me, science DOES explain this and that. Every theory (ok I'm exaggerating a little... hehe... miasmas) come from logical premise and like math 1+1=2, but if you get 3, you can always come back and figure out it's 2.

One thing I do detest however, any prick who just HAS to tell what he believes and that he's wrong and I'm right (that goes for any side of the argument). Just keep it to yourself and let me live life believing what I want to believe! That being said, I like have religious conversations with various people, as it usually is a calm and fun discussion/debate. No one walks away mad with me :D

P.S. If you live here in AZ as well and see a Mormon at your front door, please offer them water or something, it's way to damn hot outside xD

[Flying Jinko]

Well since people are talking about evolution, let me ask you this. The Earth was a barren land when it was formed. So what is the event that triggered creation of life forms on earth? I dont think there is any scientific evidence or explanation for this. Im no biology enthusiant, so I may be wrong and maybe it might be proven somehow, but if it isnt, Im sure a supernatural force was the cause of it.

[Fox17]

Well since people are talking about evolution, let me ask you this. The Earth was a barren land when it was formed. So what is the event that triggered creation of life forms on earth? I dont think there is any scientific evidence or explanation for this. Im no biology enthusiant, so I may be wrong and maybe it might be proven somehow, but if it isnt, Im sure a supernatural force was the cause of it.

Yes there are very good thoeries, I used to study biology, but I can't remember right now =/

[Flagg]

Well since people are talking about evolution, let me ask you this. The Earth was a barren land when it was formed. So what is the event that triggered creation of life forms on earth? I dont think there is any scientific evidence or explanation for this. Im no biology enthusiant, so I may be wrong and maybe it might be proven somehow, but if it isnt, Im sure a supernatural force was the cause of it.

This is such a gross piece of misinformation.

Because YOU don't think there is evidence for how life could just "happen", you've decided that there is probably no evidence anywhere.

[Armageddon]

Well I belive in god,I am also Muslim, but don't belive what some people say about us, we don't hate catholic, some of my best friends are catholic!

[Flying Jinko]

This is such a gross piece of misinformation.

Because YOU don't think there is evidence for how life could just "happen", you've decided that there is probably no evidence anywhere.

Well I have done reasonable research and I didnt find anything. Also if something as important as this was found and revealed every layman would know about it in general. Also if you know you know the answer pls enlighten us.

[kodkilla]

Well since people are talking about evolution, let me ask you this. The Earth was a barren land when it was formed. So what is the event that triggered creation of life forms on earth? I dont think there is any scientific evidence or explanation for this. Im no biology enthusiant, so I may be wrong and maybe it might be proven somehow, but if it isnt, Im sure a supernatural force was the cause of it.

There are quite a few actually, my favorite being that we are Martians :D. The theory is that a meteors/asteroids struck mars and sent chunks of rock into outer space and onto earth where the life on that rock was the building blocks of what came to be today. http://discovermagazine.com/2001/aug/featmars

[Flagg]

Well I have done reasonable research and I didnt find anything. Also if something as important as this was found and revealed every layman would know about it in general. Also if you know you know the answer pls enlighten us.

Firstly, the earth wasn't a "barren land" when it was first formed, it was a mass of molten rock with sea's of lava.

There are several theories to how life occured on earth from meteorites containing microbes crashing to earth to chemical reactions occuring due to intense heat and pressure.

And if you must know, an experiment was carried out in 1950's to test the chemical hypothesis. And you know what? The experiment worked and is known as the Miller-Urey experiment:




I mean this in the nicest possible way, but I dont see why I should provide this sort of stuff when you clearly cant be bothered to research yourself. I don't like or agree with religion, but im versed enough in theology to know enough, and I would state, I probably know more passages in the Bible than the average Christian.

[amadasan]

I'm a panentheist (not sure of the spelling - from: Panentheism) ... Until 8 years ago I did not believe in God ... Then I went through high school; and subjects like biology, physics, and chemistry came into picture ... Relativity and causality ... They seriously made me think ... I researched around, read a lot, and finally chose a school of thought for myself!

Flagg: The Miller-Urey experiment you're referring to does not explain how life formed. All it did was show how important biological substances can appear in nature (or at least what they thought Earth's atmosphere was like billions of years ago). After more recent researches and hypothesis, most of the scientific community refuted the earlier hypothesis used in the experiment. Either way, the experiment only showed how those substances can appear, not integrate to create a living organism. Let me put it this way: If you take a living cell, extract everything important in it (chemicals, DNA, RNA, etc) and put them in a "perfect" environment, they still won't combine into a living organism. I mean, if it was that simple, wouldn't scientists create new life-forms?!

[Flying Jinko]

There are quite a few actually, my favorite being that we are Martians :D. The theory is that a meteors/asteroids struck mars and sent chunks of rock into outer space and onto earth where the life on that rock was the building blocks of what came to be today. http://discovermagazine.com/2001/aug/featmars

Thx man, this is the type of reply I was expecting. But still it is only a theory (though a very promising one). Also this does not entirely answer my question as I wanted an explanation how 'life' happened in general. My question can be extended to 'how did those bacteria on the asteroids get life?' but I shall refrain from out cause it may derail the topic.. I still believe there is a supernatural force (God) involved in creating life forms.

[Shang 'T' Sung]

Intelligent design? I'm agnostic, I acknowledge my perception of the world around me, and define it as existence. After that anything is possible.

[Kzaoo]

Meh, I don't care for religion. People can believe what they want.
The thing that annoys me about religion is the small group of people who try to force their views on others.

[kodkilla]

Thx man, this is the type of reply I was expecting. But still it is only a theory (though a very promising one). Also this does not entirely answer my question as I wanted an explanation how 'life' happened in general. My question can be extended to 'how did those bacteria on the asteroids get life?' but I shall refrain from out cause it may derail the topic.. I still believe there is a supernatural force (God) involved in creating life forms.

As far as "how life happened", no one is really sure yet. We've been able to recreate DNA, protein strands, ect... that are building blocks of life, but don't know why it occurs naturally yet. So You question is unfortunately impossible to answer... For now xD

*edit* You might find this interesting http://io9.com/5543843/scientists-cr...self+replicate

[Josegtx13]

I believe there is a God out there, but that he created everything through Evolution and scientific ways. Do I do everything right or for the name of God? Of course not, i'm a human being like everyone else. Even though I grew up with a Catholic family, I don't have a religion. I believe Religion was created to control people, seeing how back in the day if you didn't believe in their Religion, not God, but their Religion they could kill you. Even today religion is use as a scare tactic to bring people into their own religion. Also even people attack themselves for what religion they believe in they could have the same beliefs, follow the same God, but they hate each other because one is Christian and the other Catholic or what ever religion their in.

Thats my opinion, I respect religious people, until they try to convert me (impossible =P), in that situations Ill just say f*** off.

LOL same here man.

[Etryus]

Based on your post, I seriously doubt you vigorously studied evolution.

I have, and I work as a biologist in the blood transfusion center. So I had my share with biology few years ago.

Many scientists feel that biology would implode without the theory of evolution, and all you've done here is poke holes in evolution, not completely dismantled it. And even if you do disprove it, you can't simply refute evolution and say that means god is real.

As I stated, it lacks proofwise. Even university teachers will tell you that Evolution has it's own limits. Many pieces of the puzzle are missing and in the research field they often find themselves in a dead end. Don't be surprised if in 10 years max Darwinism breaks apart. I never said God is real because I refute Evolution. I said I analysed given data and made a choice.

You just said we progressed from the medieval era by following science, but now nothing is getting better? We have better medicines, better ways of travel, better ways to communicate, etc, so how are things getting worse?

Come on Eks, don't turn around what I said my friend. Or you misunderstood my statement.
I meant that every existing object/organism tend to decay and/or die. Humans get old and die, Plants, trees, insects, buildings, cars, socks, TVs. Everything. Nothing of it is getting better in time.
Your examples are perfect examples of why science is needed. It has nothing to do with our debate though.
Being a believer dosen't stop you from being a great scientist. Take John Napier, Francis Bacon, Rene Descartes, Isaac Newton, Max Planck, etc...

It's statements like this that force me to question how much and how seriously you studied evolution. A fundamental tenant of evolution is reproduction, so of course leaving a random object somewhere isn't gonna lead to an evolved version of that object.

It was supposed to make you laugh . Anyway, the core of evolution is a series of mutations that happens during hundreds (if not thousands) of years. When the mutation is in your DNA, you transmit it with the other genes to your offspring.
So, your turn. Give me 1 beneficial mutation that we are aware of...

Furthermore, why doesn't god just make my room clean if I ask him? I mean, if he can create the universe, surely cleaning a small mess isn't a big deal.

Sorry bro, I am not God, I can't answer that

Crystals have one of the most organized structures of anything that exists, and we can see them form without any assistance, so what's so hard to believe about the natural formation of DNA? 13 billion years is a long time.

DNA is far more complex than crystals. The probability of just one DNA arranging itself by chance has been calculated to be 1 chance in 10^119,000. The entire visible universe is 10^28 inches in diameter. (In The Beginning Walt Brown p. 12)

No it doesn't.

Darwin himself: “To suppose that the eye…could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.” (The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection or The Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life. Charles Darwin 1859 p. 217)

Buy the book and read it.

So what? Fossils are not the sole evidence for evolution, and a single fossil linking all living organism would actually be a lack of evidence for evolution because we would need to show the transitions from one species to another.

Besides Fossils, all you have left is the homology and embryology.
It's the similitude of shapes and structures between living organisms (homology) and the similitude between early stages embryos of different living organisms (embryology).

The father of those concepts is Ernst Haeckel.
I'll let you read these articles from US universities why all this is a fraud.

Chicago university
Berkeley university
And this
Link to sciencemag

quote from previous article:

Always suspicious of teleological and mystical explanation, Haeckel used the Origin as ammunition both to attack entrenched religious dogma and to build his own unique world view.

He is also the father of racism:

"Ernst Haeckel (1834-1919) was an avid, self-appointed spokesman for Darwinism in Germany . . Haeckel professed a mystical belief in the forces of nature and a literal transfer of the laws of biology to the social realm. The movement he founded in Germany was proto-Nazi in character; romantic Volkism and the Monist League (established 1906), along with evolution and science, laid the ideological foundations of [German] National Socialism. " . . English Darwinism interlinked two main themes, natural selection and the struggle for existence. Social Darwinism is an attempt to explain human society in terms of evolution, but Haeckel’s [proto-Nazi] interpretation was quite different from that of capitalist Herbert Spencer or of communist Marx. For him a major component was the ethic of inherent struggle between higher and lower cultures,—between races of men."—*Michael Pitman, Adam and Evolution (1984), p. 48."Along with his social Darwinist followers, [Haeckel] set about to demonstrate the ‘aristocratic’ and nondemocratic aspect of the laws of nature . . Up to his death in 1919, Haeckel contributed to that special variety of German thought which served as the seed-bed for National Socialism. He became one of Germany’s main ideologists for racism, nationalism, and imperialism."—*Daniel Gasman, Scientific Origins of National Socialism: Social Darwinism in Ernst Haeckel and the German Monist League (1971), p. xvi.

So that really leaves us with fossils.

Of course a wolf isn't gonna evolve into a bird, but that's not what evolution proposes, either. To make such statements makes it clear that you don't understand evolution.

Evolution proposes that we all evolved from the same ancestor: bacteria, animals, humans, plants, etc... We all have the same ancestor. If you don't agree with it, I am sorry but that means it is you who don't understand evolution.

Link to LUCA: Last Universal Common Ancestor

Quote from article:

Last Universal Common Ancestor, a single cell that lived perhaps 3 or 4 billion years ago, and from which all life has since evolved. Amazingly, every living thing we see around us (and many more that we can only see with the aid of a microscope) is related. As far as we can tell, life on Earth arose only once.

Where did you copy this from? Link, please? Carbon dating isn't by any means the only method of dating, either.

These are books I read back then when I was a student, the references are already posted.

What does adding energy have to do with evolution?

As I stated before:

Evolutionists assume that adding energy will overcome the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

It means that scientist believe that adding energy will stop order from becoming chaos. And so the complex molecules can be formed.

Here's a miracle for you:

I've never seen a miracle that doesn't include some sort of trickery like this, either.

lol funny vid, who the hell is he? Never heard of him, let's stay in the science field, it's way more interesting .

I'm willing to believe anything so long as there is sufficient evidence. I don't care about codes and I seriously doubt a god that can create creatures like the tapeworm would be so petty as to care if we worship it, either.

I would just like to add 1 thing: Evolutionists & Creationists are the same. In both worlds you need faith to believe.
In one you need faith to believe that a supreme being called God exists.
In the second you need faith to believe that 15 billions years ago, from nothing a big bang occured and we got everything. You must “picture” or imagine evolution since we never observe it in the present. It only takes place in the imagination.

In both cases there is no proof. Let your heart or your brains choose!

Peace and Eks you still remain one of my favorite TRMK members

[Zoidberg747]

I believe in god and jesus christ and do not consider myself christian. I just disagree with so many views of christianity and I am around so many of them that say things that make me sick, so finally i decided to not be a christian. I believe in Evolution because it is scientifically proven that it happened, and it makes more sense than god made humans I believe god made the universe so he technically still made what we evolved from.

At the end of the day as long as you are respective of others religions(I.e not saying anyone who doesnt believe in god will go to hell) your cool in my book! :D

[Doc]

Religion, in my opinion, is just a way for ancient people to explain why nature does things. It would've been much easier to grasp why it rained if you just assumed you did something right and something was rewarding you for it.

Now that we've got scientific, rational and, above all, provable explanations as to how many things in the natural world work, the real need for religion as explanatory tool is diminished. Really the only reason people use religion to explain anything is mainly out of tradition.

The only reason it really stays around is a combination of political and social clout and tradition, but when religions (especially in the first world where scientific knowledge is readily available) use that power to spread ignorance, the whole idea ends up doing more harm than good.

Having said that, I don't honestly care if you're religious or not. Just don't get up in everyone's grill trying to change their minds.

[Killer Ryno]

I find religion just so funny and ridiculous, the fact that people worship a mystical being just because they dont know the universe inside and out :P I mean dont get me wrong, I TRIED, I really did try to believe, i wanted to believe that there is this wonderful heaven you go to after you die, where you can be with your friends and family and have good times for eternity; but how does all this happen? people question the mysteries of the universe yet they will believe in a place that has NO evidence at all?!

[10902SMOKE22234]

I'm Christian and I think that God exists, but I also believe in Evolution. I think it's wrong for Religious people to try to convert people because that's like saying "my beliefs are better than yours."