Indiana Paces vs. The City of Detroit

THANK YOU MAN!! :D

i've been trying to figure out what happened at that game for the longest. all i hear and see is that there was a big fight but i never got details. man that's freaking halarious! it was really starting to piss me off that i would always see short clips of what happened but never the whole thing.
 
KiLlAcAm said:
nomorewordz said:
i believe artest is a pussy, notice his reaction when wallace is ready to go, he dont want none, AAAHH but the fans lets kick their asses, btw not a fans fault, even though that was so goddamn stupid what he did artest still should not have done that he is juast a stupid !@#$

Stupid !@#$! artest would have got suspended for 2 seasons if he hit wallace and say im wrong i watched ESPN 30 minutes ago and heard it! Lets see what you would do if wallace hit you! You would cower like a pussy!
no shit dumbass , nor would i start shit w/ him just so i could punk out like artest did, hmm seems like dumbass has entered this discussion, quit posting so much no one wants to hear what you have to say, jackass
 
raidenfighter said:
KiLlAcAm said:
McShorty said:
I blame this on the fans. I'm not saying it was okay for the players to jump in the stands, but the fans physically provokes someone, a someone who is known for being nuts, and when they do that they better be prepared to receive what they gave out. You punch someone, they're probably going to punch you back. But, the suspensions are completely acceptable and deserved, players simply can't do what Artest and company did, you can't, but you have to take into account a couple things:

A.) Artest is batshit insane and the fans should know that by now.
B.) Artest actually showed restraint by NOT attacking Wallace back. Whoever called him a pussy for that is a !@#$ idiot and should be banned from the forums for being stupid.
C.) The other players who jumped in (Jackson, O'Neal) were on pure adrenaline at that point, and were protecting their teammate. The man is most likely like a brother to those guys, basket ball is a team sport, and you're damn right those guys are going to protect their brother.
D.) The fans are !@#$ morons, plain and simple, one player, Fred Jones, wasn't doing anything, not fighting at all, and a fan attacked him from behind. Its ridiculous and the people of Detroit should be ashamed. Absolutely ashamed. Any of them that try to press charges and make a pretty penny from the players should be laughed out of the court and then run over with a car.

So yeah, the players deserved what they got with the suspensions, you can't go in the stands, end of story. But outside of the game of basketball, everyone one of those people deserved to get the shit kicked out of them. Anyone who threw drinks or chairs should get laid the !@#$ out. If it wasn't a professional sport, just real life, those people would have gotten deservedly thrashed. They all should be ashamed of themselves.

jackson o`neal you mean jermaine o`neal(sorry i had to point that out)

He was talking about two different players, you turd. Stephen Jackson and Jermain O'Neal. Hence the comma. You turd.

ooo sorry i didn`t see the comma my bad.
 
nomorewordz said:
KiLlAcAm said:
nomorewordz said:
i believe artest is a pussy, notice his reaction when wallace is ready to go, he dont want none, AAAHH but the fans lets kick their asses, btw not a fans fault, even though that was so goddamn stupid what he did artest still should not have done that he is juast a stupid !@#$

Stupid !@#$! artest would have got suspended for 2 seasons if he hit wallace and say im wrong i watched ESPN 30 minutes ago and heard it! Lets see what you would do if wallace hit you! You would cower like a pussy!
no shit dumbass , nor would i start shit w/ him just so i could punk out like artest did, hmm seems like dumbass has entered this discussion, quit posting so much no one wants to hear what you have to say, jackass

wow you are stupid not to mention the fact wallace hit HIM jerkass.
 
El Chupacabra said:
A few things came of this incident:

Pacers will struggle to make the playoffs - especially since they already down on players due to injury.

Ron Artest gets his 1 month + of rap-rest time.

a fat Detroit fan is in a coma ... or should be. Maybe dead. <-- Hopefully.

The NBA just gained a ton of media attention, which won't hurt them any.

Stephen Jackson got his 15 minutes.

Ben Wallace looks like a clown. His hair is already ridiculous enough - this didn't help him any.

I now hate the Pistons more than I did before, which was a lot, and Jermaine O'Neal climbs further up my "liked" ladder - something he has been doing the past 2 seasons of basketball due to his play and interviews (well spoken, good infront of a camera).

hey i always liked steve jackson hes a good player, and yea all wallace has to do is bleach his skin and put make-up on and hello bozo!
 
Well there certainly seems to be alot of pacer fans out there. Now we all know what happened was wrong. Wrong of the fans and the players, but to me in order to get to the bottom of this we have to rewind to the begining. *wavey screen to the past* Lets take a look at Ben Wallace first. Big Ben is what he's called. I've seen him fouled many many times and I have never seen him lash out at anyone before. Ron Artest. Well hmmm let see what this ass clown has done before, do I even have to go into the long history of fights, destruction of property and suspensions?

Now with his history let's take a look and what really started the whole "brawl". 15 point lead and 10 seconds to go. Ben goes for a slam dunk and is hit with a cheap foul (I've seen harder) and takes exception to it. This is what started it all. Now Ron Arrest (<-hmm fitting) prides himself in getting under peoples skin, to take them off thier game. Fine that's your thing Arrest, but if your going to take cheap shots at people eventually they are going to get tired of it and retalaite and you are going to have to pay the piper. How many times has he hit Ben and/or his team mates with cheap shots in the past? How many times do you think he should be allowed to do it without reprecussions? The guy obviously has a problem. He thinks that he can do anything he wants and get away with it because he is bigger, stronger, richer, or a bigger basketball superstar then someone else and he displays it with his behavior all the time. Shamelessly plugging his homo CD instead of apologizing to fans, kids and other NBA players for his child like behavior. Yeah and just like most bullies when he is confronted with someone who would beat his ass he backs right down. Funny how he can keep his composure when Ben shoves him and then throws a towel at him but the minute a person half his size does something... BAM !!!! He's right after him. And notice that he not only went after a fan but went after the smallest one he could find. Good thing there wasn't any old ladies standing over there.

It easy to point out the obvious. All that insued afterward was horrible and you can disect it all and point out who did what and who got what they deserved etc. all day long. But the bottom line was this. A player who has zero disregard for anyone but himself (as shown by his desire to take a month of to produce his CD. Can you be more selfish?) and continues to play dirty is the cause of this all. Bottom line, don't take cheap shots at people all the time and especially at garbage time when the game is already won and people won't want to beat your ass. He was the start of it all and he continued to escalate the situation all by himself.

Want to know why he was suspended for so long? Because this is not the first time they have had problems with this ass clown. He has been reprimanded several times, over and over and it did nothing. So they dropped the hammer. And what did he do? Promoted his CD. What a jack ass. And when you watch him, he acts like "I'll be out of trouble soon". He still thinks the rules apply to everyone else. I will predict we will see this ass clown in the news again, doing the same old bullshit until he goes to jail or gets suspended for life. Quit discussing what happend and take a look at why it happend...... RON ARTEST ... <--- That's why.
 
hmm i did not see wallace hit hit in the video i saw, unless you are talking about the shove, anyways you post to much who are you trying to convince dude, but hey I'LL BELIEVE IT IF YOU BELIEVE IT :)
 
Believe what you want. Did OJ do it? YES. Is Kobe a rapist? NO. Is Ron Artest the type of player who is know for, and does take cheap shots at other players? YES. Did he take a cheap shot at Ben Wallace during garbage time? YES. Was that the start of the "Brawl"? YES.

Now you can try to argue that the foul wasn't cheap. Dosen't matter. When you have a reputation for doing it and another player percieves that you "did it again", that's enough for the other person to retaliate. That's the price you pay for being a "dirty" player. Don't want to be treated that way, don't act like it. Bill Lambieer was always booed, spit on and punched by other players and fans countless times. I can't recall a time when he ran into the stands. He was percived to be dirty and he took the consequences like a man not like a punk like Ron Artest.

You can make all the excuses you want for him but it dosen't change the fact that he is a dirty player who took a cheap shot at another player as he usually does and like the punk bitch he is, he wussed out when confronted and then proceeded to go after the smallest guy in the stands he could find. He's just a thug who is lucky he didn't get fined and/or suspended even longer and no amount of excuses or arguing is ever going to change those facts.

RON ARTEST. The cause of it all, that started the brawl.
 
billybob40 said:
Well there certainly seems to be alot of pacer fans out there. Now we all know what happened was wrong. Wrong of the fans and the players, but to me in order to get to the bottom of this we have to rewind to the begining. *wavey screen to the past* Lets take a look at Ben Wallace first. Big Ben is what he's called. I've seen him fouled many many times and I have never seen him lash out at anyone before. Ron Artest. Well hmmm let see what this ass clown has done before, do I even have to go into the long history of fights, destruction of property and suspensions?

Now with his history let's take a look and what really started the whole "brawl". 15 point lead and 10 seconds to go. Ben goes for a slam dunk and is hit with a cheap foul (I've seen harder) and takes exception to it. This is what started it all. Now Ron Arrest (<-hmm fitting) prides himself in getting under peoples skin, to take them off thier game. Fine that's your thing Arrest, but if your going to take cheap shots at people eventually they are going to get tired of it and retalaite and you are going to have to pay the piper. How many times has he hit Ben and/or his team mates with cheap shots in the past? How many times do you think he should be allowed to do it without reprecussions? The guy obviously has a problem. He thinks that he can do anything he wants and get away with it because he is bigger, stronger, richer, or a bigger basketball superstar then someone else and he displays it with his behavior all the time. Shamelessly plugging his homo CD instead of apologizing to fans, kids and other NBA players for his child like behavior. Yeah and just like most bullies when he is confronted with someone who would beat his ass he backs right down. Funny how he can keep his composure when Ben shoves him and then throws a towel at him but the minute a person half his size does something... BAM !!!! He's right after him. And notice that he not only went after a fan but went after the smallest one he could find. Good thing there wasn't any old ladies standing over there.

It easy to point out the obvious. All that insued afterward was horrible and you can disect it all and point out who did what and who got what they deserved etc. all day long. But the bottom line was this. A player who has zero disregard for anyone but himself (as shown by his desire to take a month of to produce his CD. Can you be more selfish?) and continues to play dirty is the cause of this all. Bottom line, don't take cheap shots at people all the time and especially at garbage time when the game is already won and people won't want to beat your ass. He was the start of it all and he continued to escalate the situation all by himself.

Want to know why he was suspended for so long? Because this is not the first time they have had problems with this ass clown. He has been reprimanded several times, over and over and it did nothing. So they dropped the hammer. And what did he do? Promoted his CD. What a jack ass. And when you watch him, he acts like "I'll be out of trouble soon". He still thinks the rules apply to everyone else. I will predict we will see this ass clown in the news again, doing the same old bullshit until he goes to jail or gets suspended for life. Quit discussing what happend and take a look at why it happend...... RON ARTEST ... <--- That's why.

OMG

1.of course he doesn`t fight ben wallace he would have gotton suspended WAY longer if he did o and by the way your talking i guess you would punhc ben wallace in the face if he pushed you!

2. of course hes gonna promote his cd after getting suspended whats the use of fighting a case thats already closed

3.your a pistons fan most likely or you just despise the pacers

4. i bet you know NOTHING about the NBA or their teams and you only know the names of the people involved because theyve bene on the news for the past week

5.the security should have bene MUCH better!

case closed.
 
billybob40 said:
Well there certainly seems to be alot of pacer fans out there. Now we all know what happened was wrong. Wrong of the fans and the players, but to me in order to get to the bottom of this we have to rewind to the begining. *wavey screen to the past* Lets take a look at Ben Wallace first. Big Ben is what he's called. I've seen him fouled many many times and I have never seen him lash out at anyone before. Ron Artest. Well hmmm let see what this ass clown has done before, do I even have to go into the long history of fights, destruction of property and suspensions?

Now with his history let's take a look and what really started the whole "brawl". 15 point lead and 10 seconds to go. Ben goes for a slam dunk and is hit with a cheap foul (I've seen harder) and takes exception to it. This is what started it all. Now Ron Arrest (<-hmm fitting) prides himself in getting under peoples skin, to take them off thier game. Fine that's your thing Arrest, but if your going to take cheap shots at people eventually they are going to get tired of it and retalaite and you are going to have to pay the piper. How many times has he hit Ben and/or his team mates with cheap shots in the past? How many times do you think he should be allowed to do it without reprecussions? The guy obviously has a problem. He thinks that he can do anything he wants and get away with it because he is bigger, stronger, richer, or a bigger basketball superstar then someone else and he displays it with his behavior all the time. Shamelessly plugging his homo CD instead of apologizing to fans, kids and other NBA players for his child like behavior. Yeah and just like most bullies when he is confronted with someone who would beat his ass he backs right down. Funny how he can keep his composure when Ben shoves him and then throws a towel at him but the minute a person half his size does something... BAM !!!! He's right after him. And notice that he not only went after a fan but went after the smallest one he could find. Good thing there wasn't any old ladies standing over there.

It easy to point out the obvious. All that insued afterward was horrible and you can disect it all and point out who did what and who got what they deserved etc. all day long. But the bottom line was this. A player who has zero disregard for anyone but himself (as shown by his desire to take a month of to produce his CD. Can you be more selfish?) and continues to play dirty is the cause of this all. Bottom line, don't take cheap shots at people all the time and especially at garbage time when the game is already won and people won't want to beat your ass. He was the start of it all and he continued to escalate the situation all by himself.

Want to know why he was suspended for so long? Because this is not the first time they have had problems with this ass clown. He has been reprimanded several times, over and over and it did nothing. So they dropped the hammer. And what did he do? Promoted his CD. What a jack ass. And when you watch him, he acts like "I'll be out of trouble soon". He still thinks the rules apply to everyone else. I will predict we will see this ass clown in the news again, doing the same old bullshit until he goes to jail or gets suspended for life. Quit discussing what happend and take a look at why it happend...... RON ARTEST ... <--- That's why.

OMG

1.of course he doesn`t fight ben wallace he would have gotton suspended WAY longer if he did o and by the way your talking i guess you would punhc ben wallace in the face if he pushed you!

2. of course hes gonna promote his cd after getting suspended whats the use of fighting a case thats already closed

3.your a pistons fan most likely or you just despise the pacers

4. i bet you know NOTHING about the NBA or their teams and you only know the names of the people involved because theyve bene on the news for the past week

5.the security should have bene MUCH better!

case closed.
 
billybob40 said:
Believe what you want. Did OJ do it? YES. Is Kobe a rapist? NO. Is Ron Artest the type of player who is know for, and does take cheap shots at other players? YES. Did he take a cheap shot at Ben Wallace during garbage time? YES. Was that the start of the "Brawl"? YES.

Now you can try to argue that the foul wasn't cheap. Dosen't matter. When you have a reputation for doing it and another player percieves that you "did it again", that's enough for the other person to retaliate. That's the price you pay for being a "dirty" player. Don't want to be treated that way, don't act like it. Bill Lambieer was always booed, spit on and punched by other players and fans countless times. I can't recall a time when he ran into the stands. He was percived to be dirty and he took the consequences like a man not like a punk like Ron Artest.

You can make all the excuses you want for him but it dosen't change the fact that he is a dirty player who took a cheap shot at another player as he usually does and like the punk bitch he is, he wussed out when confronted and then proceeded to go after the smallest guy in the stands he could find. He's just a thug who is lucky he didn't get fined and/or suspended even longer and no amount of excuses or arguing is ever going to change those facts.

RON ARTEST. The cause of it all, that started the brawl.

i will beileve what i want are you a dicknose yes would you fight wallace if he hit you no did you hear about this on the news instead of watching the game yes do you know anything about anything that involves the nba HELL NO! and dont bug me about yes you do know about basketball if you think you do then name the 1980ss all star team.
 
KiLlAcAm said:
billybob40 said:
Well there certainly seems to be alot of pacer fans out there. Now we all know what happened was wrong. Wrong of the fans and the players, but to me in order to get to the bottom of this we have to rewind to the begining. *wavey screen to the past* Lets take a look at Ben Wallace first. Big Ben is what he's called. I've seen him fouled many many times and I have never seen him lash out at anyone before. Ron Artest. Well hmmm let see what this ass clown has done before, do I even have to go into the long history of fights, destruction of property and suspensions?

Now with his history let's take a look and what really started the whole "brawl". 15 point lead and 10 seconds to go. Ben goes for a slam dunk and is hit with a cheap foul (I've seen harder) and takes exception to it. This is what started it all. Now Ron Arrest (<-hmm fitting) prides himself in getting under peoples skin, to take them off thier game. Fine that's your thing Arrest, but if your going to take cheap shots at people eventually they are going to get tired of it and retalaite and you are going to have to pay the piper. How many times has he hit Ben and/or his team mates with cheap shots in the past? How many times do you think he should be allowed to do it without reprecussions? The guy obviously has a problem. He thinks that he can do anything he wants and get away with it because he is bigger, stronger, richer, or a bigger basketball superstar then someone else and he displays it with his behavior all the time. Shamelessly plugging his homo CD instead of apologizing to fans, kids and other NBA players for his child like behavior. Yeah and just like most bullies when he is confronted with someone who would beat his ass he backs right down. Funny how he can keep his composure when Ben shoves him and then throws a towel at him but the minute a person half his size does something... BAM !!!! He's right after him. And notice that he not only went after a fan but went after the smallest one he could find. Good thing there wasn't any old ladies standing over there.

It easy to point out the obvious. All that insued afterward was horrible and you can disect it all and point out who did what and who got what they deserved etc. all day long. But the bottom line was this. A player who has zero disregard for anyone but himself (as shown by his desire to take a month of to produce his CD. Can you be more selfish?) and continues to play dirty is the cause of this all. Bottom line, don't take cheap shots at people all the time and especially at garbage time when the game is already won and people won't want to beat your ass. He was the start of it all and he continued to escalate the situation all by himself.

Want to know why he was suspended for so long? Because this is not the first time they have had problems with this ass clown. He has been reprimanded several times, over and over and it did nothing. So they dropped the hammer. And what did he do? Promoted his CD. What a jack ass. And when you watch him, he acts like "I'll be out of trouble soon". He still thinks the rules apply to everyone else. I will predict we will see this ass clown in the news again, doing the same old bullshit until he goes to jail or gets suspended for life. Quit discussing what happend and take a look at why it happend...... RON ARTEST ... <--- That's why.

OMG

1.of course he doesn`t fight ben wallace he would have gotton suspended WAY longer if he did o and by the way your talking i guess you would punhc ben wallace in the face if he pushed you!

2. of course hes gonna promote his cd after getting suspended whats the use of fighting a case thats already closed

3.your a pistons fan most likely or you just despise the pacers

4. i bet you know NOTHING about the NBA or their teams and you only know the names of the people involved because theyve bene on the news for the past week

5.the security should have bene MUCH better!

case closed.
Liek, OMG..you're a complete blithering idiot. Before you try analyzing somebody and saying they know nothing about the NBA, you need to learn a little about how proper English is spoken and written. It doesn't matter if he is a Pistons fan or not, it could have been any other team playing, and it's still irrelevant. Ron Artest has a history of bullshit, and he stepped way over the line by charging the fans regardless if the poor baby was hit in the face by, get this, a plastic cup filled with beer. Give me a God damned break. Get off his dick for a minute and analyze the facts of the situation before you try and discredit a legitimate argument, you nimwitted tool.

You're right, the security should have been better. You should have been on the front lines wearing an oversized XXXS Security shirt, and we all could have gotten our shits and giggles by seeing you get slam dunked on national TV over and over and over again. Tool.
 
KiLlAcAm said:
billybob40 said:
Believe what you want. Did OJ do it? YES. Is Kobe a rapist? NO. Is Ron Artest the type of player who is know for, and does take cheap shots at other players? YES. Did he take a cheap shot at Ben Wallace during garbage time? YES. Was that the start of the "Brawl"? YES.

Now you can try to argue that the foul wasn't cheap. Dosen't matter. When you have a reputation for doing it and another player percieves that you "did it again", that's enough for the other person to retaliate. That's the price you pay for being a "dirty" player. Don't want to be treated that way, don't act like it. Bill Lambieer was always booed, spit on and punched by other players and fans countless times. I can't recall a time when he ran into the stands. He was percived to be dirty and he took the consequences like a man not like a punk like Ron Artest.

You can make all the excuses you want for him but it dosen't change the fact that he is a dirty player who took a cheap shot at another player as he usually does and like the punk bitch he is, he wussed out when confronted and then proceeded to go after the smallest guy in the stands he could find. He's just a thug who is lucky he didn't get fined and/or suspended even longer and no amount of excuses or arguing is ever going to change those facts.

RON ARTEST. The cause of it all, that started the brawl.

i will beileve what i want are you a dicknose yes would you fight wallace if he hit you no did you hear about this on the news instead of watching the game yes do you know anything about anything that involves the nba HELL NO! and dont bug me about yes you do know about basketball if you think you do then name the 1980ss all star team.

Although I am certain he can answer your question regarding the 1980 AllStar team (and I am personally certain he can), I here by challenge you to define and then utilize the art of correct punctuation, numbnuts.

"i beileve what i want are you a dicknose yes would you blah, blah, blah"...WTF, Tool? How dare you try and flame anyone with nonsensical gibberish like that. Get back on your bigwheel, pedal your stupid ass back home, ask your mom if it's Ok if you watch Sports Center for a half an hour before bedtime and review the fight again and again until you finally figure out that:

A) You have no idea what you're talking about
B) You're a complete Tool
C) If you have closed-captioning, study it hard and learn how to write
D) You're a complete Tool.

Oh yeah, and that is not a free invitation to jerk off all over Ron Artest's image either, black cock loving fanboy.
 
KiLlCaM said:
i will beileve what i want are you a dicknose yes would you fight wallace if he hit you no did you hear about this on the news instead of watching the game yes do you know anything about anything that involves the nba HELL NO! and dont bug me about yes you do know about basketball if you think you do then name the 1980ss all star team.



I don't even know what to say. I mean all you asked me was "who was on the 1980's all star team". And I can answer that without a problem. "Who was on the 1980's all star team?" Your slutty mom that's who. I heard she did both teams. Some double penetration with some man meat in her mouth... HA HA See that's how you come off. Me? I am just going to stop with all that garbage. See what we are supposed to be discussing what was the real reason for the start of the melee. And all you did was say a bunch of things that had nothing to do with the argument at hand. I refuse to talk with you until you can dispute the things I mentioned.

1. Would I hit Ben Wallace? Hell no. I would run just like that punk Ron Artest did. He would of been suspended way longer if he fought back. PLEASE. He didn't fight back because Wallace would of destroyed him. If he was worried about having a longer suspension he would not of gone into the stands. But then again the people in the stands are like half his size no need to run from them.

2. I am a piston fan that's true but I think I was being pretty impartial in my response. I did admit that the foul although cheap wasn't that hard.

3. I am a sports fan. I know about everything that happens in sports regardless if it's the NHL, NBA or the jamaican bob sled team.

4. The security should of been better? Well let's see it has always been capable of keeping the fans inline at the Palace and every other single venue in the NBA. Even after championships. I mean when Indiana won it the fans didn't rush the floor did they. Oops that's right they haven't won. Oops my bad. As far as I can tell it has always been sufficent until PLAYERS ran into the stands. That's when they became overwhelmed in the mayhem.

5. I will give you one thing though. He needs to promote his CD because now he has to come up with an extra 5 Million dollars. I can only imagine going home and having to tell the wife I just lost that kind of coin. He won't be getting puddy anytime soon. Maybe he can call you mother?
 
Well, Billy PMed me for an impartial opinion. I believe I can give one, especially considering the fact that I'm not really a basketball fan, but I do watch certain games when I have nothing better to do. The game in question was one of those games.

Ok. I already stated my belief that EVERYONE was at fault. However, if you want to try to narrow it down to one single person, I'm sorry, but I'd say Ben Wallace. At least for the start of the fight. It's a friggin' foul, for God's sakes. It's not like Artest went all WWE on him and busted him upside the head with a steel chair. Wallace was obviously fine, and had no need to be pissed off. Hell, I've seen Big Ben commit fouls that put that shit to shame. He just snapped. He got pissed, maybe he felt embarassed, and he decided to prove he was a big man. I'm sorry Billy, but you yourself said that Artest should've taken the fan's abuse like a man. I think that's bullshit. I think Wallace should've taken the foul like a man, took his shots, and moved on. Let Artest foul out of the game, if that's the way he wants to play the game.

HOWEVER. When Artest got pegged in the head, he should NOT have jumped on the fan. THAT was complete bullshit. The fans are the people who PAY THE PLAYERS. Be it by watching the games (thus hooking up the ratings and luring in profitable commercials) or by coming to the arenas and paying for the tickets, Artest should have a little more respect for the people who pay his paycheck. I'm not saying that the fan should've thrown the drink, I'm saying that Artest should've let security take care of the fan in question. That's the difference between a foul and a year-long suspension. His actions look even worse considering that he beat the shit out of the wrong fan.

All in all, two people snapped when they had no need to snap, and they got their just desserts. Those are my two cents, take 'em or leave 'em.
 
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